this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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Do we really don't have anything older before it that counts as a paid service/job being registered?

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[–] lvxferre@mander.xyz 109 points 4 months ago (16 children)

This reminds me an experiment made with capuchin monkeys, where the researchers were using small discs as some sort of currency. They could use it to buy stuff like pieces of cucumber (they eat it, but it's meh), jell-o (they like it), grapes (they love it)...

One of the things that they reported is that a female exchanged sex for a disc. Then used said disc to buy a grape.

Conclusion: sex for goods is likely a human behaviour that predates humankind itself.

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[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 98 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

If you take “job” to mean “doing a thing in exchange for another thing”:

Allow me to narrate a brief historical reenactment:

Caveguy:

dragging cavedeer carcus somewhere

Cavegirl:

happens upon the scene

grunting (translation: damn that venison lookin’ tasty af)

Caveguy:

grunting (translation: it’s mine you can’t have it)

Cavegirl:

grunting, but seductively (translation: well, if we smash, can I have some?)

Caveguy:

aroused grunting (translation: hell yeah girl, you can stick around, I’ve been having the worst dry spell)

~fin~

[–] 0001@discuss.tchncs.de 40 points 4 months ago

This is cinema - Martin Scorsese

[–] Classy@sh.itjust.works 16 points 4 months ago

These Unga bunga bitches always sliding in my DMs trying to get free shit!

[–] memfree@lemmy.ml 52 points 4 months ago (7 children)

It's not just us humans, chimps trade meat for sex: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/chimps-behavior-sex-news-animals

Yale taught monkeys about money, and yup, they traded money for sex. From archive of NYT article:

Further proof that the monkeys truly understood money: the monkey who was paid for sex immediately traded the token in for a grape.

[–] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 3 points 4 months ago

ale taught monkeys about money, and yup, they traded money for sex. From archive of NYT article:

That was a fascinating read! Thanks!

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[–] mipadaitu@lemmy.world 48 points 4 months ago

It's a commentary on humanity and society.

There's no records or evidence for the first jobs, so it's mostly humor with a grain of truth. Most likely trading sexual favors for some benefit likely predates most other forms of trade (but it obviously depends on the exact definition of trade, profession, prostitution, etc.)

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 34 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Because courtship rituals show up before money and across species usually involve the male providing food to the female to demonstrate the males fitness.

Long before language, money, and lots of other shit had been invented, males have traded resources for sex.

In some species the female stays with the young and is unable to get food for herself, she has to rely on her mate providing food or her and the baby die.

[–] raef@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

There was an experiment where the researchers introduced "money" to chimps that they could exchange for fruit treats. Some females almost immediately began trading sex for money

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[–] yuki2501@lemmy.world 25 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

More interesting is the origins of that phrase to designate prostitution.

Fortunately, I found an article in worldhistories.net, that shows the first documented time of this phrase. The person who coined the phrase was none other than Ruyard Kipling ("The Jungle Book"):

Lalun is a member of the most ancient profession in the world. Lilith was her very-great-grandmamma, and that was before the days of Eve as every one knows. In the West, people say rude things about Lalun’s profession, and write lectures about it, and distribute the lectures to young persons in order that Morality may be preserved. In the East where the profession is hereditary, descending from mother to daughter, nobody writes lectures or takes any notice, and that is a distinct proof of the inability of the East to manage its own affairs.

- On the City Wall, in In Black and White (Allahabad: A. H. Wheeler & Co., 1889), page 78

If you want to know about actual prostitution, we should go far back to ancient Mesopotamian texts.

According to "The Epic of Gilgamesh" (the most ancient epic in the world), the gods created a savage man, Enkidu, who lived in harmony with the animals in the woods. Gilgamesh wants to tame Enkidu, and is told to bring a "harimtu" (a "sacred prostitute") to him.

and he [Enkidu] possessed her ripeness. She was not bashful as she welcomed his ardor. She laid aside her cloth and he rested upon her. She treated him, the savage, to a woman’s task, as his love was drawn unto her.”

Later, as he regrets joining civilization, Enkidu curses the harimtu:

“I will curse you with a great curse… you shall not build a house for your debauch you shall not enter the tavern of girls…. May waste places be your couch, May the shadow of the town-wall be your stand May thorn and bramble skin your feet May drunkard and toper (ed note: someone who drinks alcohol to excess) alike slap your cheek.”

Researcher Gerda Lerner, in her article "The Origin of Prostitution in Ancient Mesoportamia" (Signs, 1986, pp. 245-6), says:

The nature of this curse tells us that the harimtu who mated with Enkidu lived an easier and better life than the harlot who has her stand at the town wall and is abused by her drunken customers.

This would confirm the distinction we made earlier between the women engaged in various forms of sacral sexual service and commercial prostitutes. Such a distinction was more likely to have existed in the earlier period than later.”

So yes, there were prostitutes in ancient Mesopotamia, the cradle of civilization.

EDIT: typo

[–] alekwithak@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] Jyek@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago

Prostitution is not specifically gendered and sex for pleasure's sake is not specific to men. There could be male or female customers seeking male or female prostitutes.

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[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 23 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I liked the analysis in HIMYM. It can't possibly be the world's oldest profession, because in order to exchange something of value for sex, you have to have obtained something of value. Like say this hypothetical first ever prostitute was exchanging blowjobs for berries, then berry gatherer was actually the first profession.

[–] XeroxCool@lemmy.world 18 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Unless the offer was a blowjob for him to go get the berries.

[–] DeltaTangoLima@reddrefuge.com 10 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Arguably, her giving the blowjob meant she got the berries

[–] MolochAlter@lemmy.world 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] nomous@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The berry purchaser is the real job creator.

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[–] djsoren19@yiffit.net 19 points 4 months ago

It predates human civilization, and likely even predates homo sapiens. Our great chimp ancestors were likely trading spare food for sexual favors, though whether you can consider it the oldest profession depends on your definitions.

[–] pathief@lemmy.world 13 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It's hard for me to believe that hunter / food seeker isn't the oldest profession... But it's definitely up there.

[–] foggy@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Yo if you hunt and gather a little more and share it all you can fuck my cave wife

[–] Firipu@startrek.website 5 points 4 months ago

What's the last time you met a gatherer doing it as a profession and not a hobby?

Hunters are a little bit more common, but still, full time food hunters are rare.

Prostitutes on the other hand.

So as a simple saying used in a daily life, I can kinda see why it's used :)

[–] Zier@fedia.io 6 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I can't answer that question, but I want to know why it's called the oldest profession when sex work is still illegal in most of the world. A profession is usually a legal job. And sex workers should be legal everywhere as a human right.

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Profession doesn't mean legal. It's just as opposed to amateur. ie. You make enough money doing it for it to pay your cost of living.

But yeah it definitely should be legal, regulated, and unionized

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 4 months ago

It has been legal in large parts of the world at some point in history.

[–] Montagge@lemmy.zip 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The only thing I can think that would be almost as old is agriculture

[–] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 12 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Nah, prostitution pre-dates agriculture. Hunter-gatherer populations had men trading resources for sex.

[–] Montagge@lemmy.zip 2 points 4 months ago

That's what agriculture is almost as old as prostitution!

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

Around here it is called world's oldest business.

[–] PostiveNoise@kbin.melroy.org 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

There were probably professions that long predate history, and any of those are a bit hard to prove. There were 'shaman' in pre-history, and good shaman were quite possibly supported by their communities. There may also have been things like dedicated cooks. Trading sex for food however, is clearly hundreds of thousands if not millions of years old, so it's hard to argue that other professions came before it.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

I'm imagining dinosaur hookers, out on the jungle corner in fishnets and halter tops, smoking cigarettes and shaking their tails at passersby.

Edit: look at that second word before anyone gets snarky about dinos and humans not coexisting. We can have fun that ignores reality, and there's nothing more fun than picking up a t-rex hooker in your Flintstonesmobile, taking her back to your cave and smoking some rock. It's a gneiss day.

[–] PostiveNoise@kbin.melroy.org 3 points 4 months ago

ok. I too am now imagining dinosaur hookers, and it's not even the weekend yet. RARHH!

[–] Classy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago

You're focused on the second to first word, I'm focused on that second to last one! Fantastic pun.

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