this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
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278
‘People have no idea’: How smart devices spy on us and reveal information about our homes (english.elpais.com)
submitted 1 year ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/privacyguides@lemmy.one
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[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 76 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I don't think that the issue is that people don't know; people don't care. They don't understand how horrible the loss of privacy is, and think that the marginal convenience of being able to control your thermostat from your workplace, or have your refrigerator add milk to your shopping list outweighs the negatives of them being turned into botnets, or monetizing all of your data to squeeze every last penny out of you.

[–] Jessvj93@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

We also shouldn't be conditioned to just accept terms of services with no recourse, by this point I think most people just press accept and know by now whatever it is there, isn't worth the trouble of fighting to have it changed. So companies get to legally have a free for all with your privacy, cause you consented to things you'll later find out you didn't even know you consented for.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No reason to care when the TOS can be changed at any time, and who wants to read it once much less every times they want to use a thing?

[–] Diamond_AaronXG@mstdn.party 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@snooggums @throws_lemy @HelixDab2 @Jessvj93 tosdr is the solution to that!

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It helps once, but does it push notifications when the TOS changes from the last time you read it?

The TOS could switch from protecting your data to sharing it for money at any point in time and that would apply to any existing data. Unless you know you can get them to delete it, the fact that the TOS used to say something does not matter once they change it.

[–] Diamond_AaronXG@mstdn.party 2 points 1 year ago

@snooggums @throws_lemy @HelixDab2 @Jessvj93 ofc that’s always the risk you take when using any service. Sadly a lot of the time the ToS is so long it’d take forever to read but this is the closest I’ve been able to find to quick overviews on the the ToS of a specified service.

Note that it does not have every service critiqued as I think ppl with TOSDR manually read the ToS and evaluate.

[–] Adalast@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

ToS are the worst thing ever. They are "contracts" that you are required to sign to do literally anything in the world but are not allowed to negotiate and can be modified at any time without your consent and your original signing is propagated to the new contract and it is still considered binding. Also, they are allowed to put clauses in which hand over rights to your property, intellectual or otherwise, which is irrevocable and perpetual. Additionally, you have many "software" providers putting clauses in which state that you only lease the license, you do not own it. Even if you have a physical media with the software, you only purchased a lease and it is therefore illegal for you to resell it. They are also allowed to revoke your lease at anytime, without recompense of any sort. That is the real power of SaaS, not the subscription, but the fact that nobody is ever allowed to own something, no matter how much money you have paid.

Yes, as others have said, they are virtually unenforceable, but it does happen often enough to make sure you are afraid of it.

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

The TOS are the legal equivalent of a locked car door. It's the bare minimum prevention against a lawsuit, but really doesn't protect anything. It's because they are so long and opaque that they are often unenforceable.

[–] Starglasses@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You say you don't think the issue is that people don't know then immediately begin with "they don't understand..."

What's the difference?

[–] boatswain@infosec.pub 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The difference is the part immediately after you stopped quoting:

They don't understand how horrible the loss of privacy is...

What OP is saying here is that people know abstractly that smart devices are not privacy friendly, but they don't understand how big a deal that actually can be.

[–] GunValkyrie@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So what you guys are saying is that people have no idea how much their privacy is being invaded.

[–] Starglasses@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not understanding is the same as not knowing. I know that a car pollutes the environment but I don't understand just how much. I don't know the info.

[–] icydefiance@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I know that a car pollutes...

[–] Starglasses@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And don't understand the extent of its impact.

[–] dabster291@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago

Exactly, they aren't the same.

[–] mreiner@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I also feel many don’t understand the full extent, either. They’re used to using fairly secure devices in their everyday life (often not realizing how much the software they install is also spying on them), so why wouldn’t these IoT things also be secure?

In my experience, it’s all very vague and ethereal until the risks are highlighted for them. “So what if Google can read all of my emails? What could they possibly do with that information, anyway; why should I care?” is an example of a portion of a real conversation I’ve had.

[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

What's really maddening is realizing that secure spying is still spying.

[–] corroded@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The best solution IMO is don't let your smart devices have access to the internet. Put them on a VLAN, block them at the firewall, whatever method you prefer. Accessing your home network remotely is one thing, but your air conditioner doesn't need to INITIATE a connection to the outside world.

[–] agressivelyPassive@feddit.de 32 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I honestly still don't get, what exactly all this is for.

Why are companies pumping more and more money into advertising? What do they expect us to do? Most people can't spend more money and if you have to increase prices because of your overblown ad budget, they're even less likely to do so.

And what exactly are they thinking they're getting from companies like Google and Meta? The amount of ads I get that are actually relevant and not super-obvious is miniscule. Ad tech does not work even remotely as well as advertised.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 9 points 1 year ago

That's because you're not a typical consumer. Average consumer those ads target is a mindless capitalist zombie with the sole goal of owning more stuff. Especially in US (but not only) people are trained by their capitalist master that 'you are what you own' and spending money is a way of living there. I'm sure you see it everywhere. People go absolutely crazy over brands like Marvel or Star Wars and spend thousands of dollars on useless gadgets. People go crazy over snickers and buy hundredths of pairs. People go crazy over phones and and take credit just to own the latests model. And the ads are there to program those people into wanting more and more things.

[–] Raiderkev@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You'd be surprised the amount of times I've heard someone say they got something after seeing a targeted ad. I personally just zone out until the ad's done. It's hard to believe people actually pay attention, and then go so far as clicking the ad and buying the product.

[–] agressivelyPassive@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it zero?

[–] Raiderkev@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

It definitely should be, but I have heard at least 2 people make that statement, so the fact that it's not 0 is mind blowing. Maybe I just need better friends.

[–] w2tpmf@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

You don't get it because you don't have the endless supply of information on ever man woman and child on earth.

The information is valuable so they can continue to squeeze every cent out of everyone I'm every way possible, including those who can't afford to spend it.

[–] Aesculapius@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Security risk is the bigger concern IMHO. These devices are often a security weak point for networks. Putting them on their own wifi network and then isolating that network is critical.

[–] rehydrate5503@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How can you ensure this is done? There are so many devices that need to connect to the internet and some that require access to other network devices to function.

[–] semperverus@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You basically need to employ network engineering level security - very tight firewall rules, use NAT where it's available (IPv6 removes NAT, which ipv6 apologists will tell you is a good thing - they're wrong, as it removes per-service level control and moves it out to per-device/per-NIC), and punch very specific holes to grant access where needed.

Prevent north/south traffic entirely, limit east/west traffic heavily

[–] lyam23@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Happen to have any resources outlining these steps for the average consumer?

[–] Asudox@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Soms don't even care.

[–] iamnotdunningkruger@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is Govee any better or worse than any of the other brands?

[–] TexMexBazooka@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Their app is awful