this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
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Fuck Cars

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A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!

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[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub -3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

So what did we do before we had widespread cargo trucking?

Agrarian society - wagons and hand carts.

they organized their towns and cities around rail

Towns and cities were significantly smaller and less complex. Rail does not scale. Adding new rail spurs is prohibitively time-consuming and inflexible.

Seriously, how would you propose to handle citywide garbage/recycling collection with light rail and no motorized vehicles? (Just for instance).

[–] teuast@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

Your history is wrong. We had begun industrializing about 100 years before trucks were invented and more like 160 before they really became dominant.

And are you literally arguing that building rail is more cost prohibitive, time consuming, and inflexible than building roads? Like actually? Unironically? I'm sorry, buddy, but when you start getting into numbers, that's my territory and you're out of your depth. https://alankandel.scienceblog.com/2014/01/11/rails-vs-roads-for-value-utilization-emissions-savings-difference-like-night-and-day/

If only we properly invested in history education in this country. Then maybe people wouldn't be embarrassing themselves by making arguments like yours.

[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub -4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

This only addresses passenger transit and none of the logistics issues which have been my actual argument.

This is not practical for transporting cargo around a moderately sized urban area. It never will be.

[–] teuast@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

ok then

What you've been failing to consider, which I think I may have been taking as read to my detriment, is that the way our cities are organized plays a big role in determining which mode of shipping is more effective. The denser of a center you have, the more businesses you have concentrated in one place, the more you need capacity and the less you need flexibility. That inverts as things get more spread out and stuff needs to get to more different places. When you have a city organized around its rail infrastructure rather than a sprawling car-dependent mess, that rail infrastructure absolutely kills at supplying the place, significantly reducing the severity of the last-mile problem.

I will also note that even the most anti-car places still rightfully allow for delivery vehicles, and neither I nor I think any other person who doesn't like cars would begrudge that. I personally just think that pretty much any shipping done by big rig when it could be done by rail is a missed opportunity.

Here are a few additional links for you to consider:

Trucking is heavily subsidized

The interstates are increasingly a metaphorical financial albatross around our collective neck

The places that are connected by and organized around rail are invariably the most economically productive areas of any city

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