this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2024
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Work Reform
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A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.
Our Philosophies:
- All workers must be paid a living wage for their labor.
- Income inequality is the main cause of lower living standards.
- Workers must join together and fight back for what is rightfully theirs.
- We must not be divided and conquered. Workers gain the most when they focus on unifying issues.
Our Goals
- Higher wages for underpaid workers.
- Better worker representation, including but not limited to unions.
- Better and fewer working hours.
- Stimulating a massive wave of worker organizing in the United States and beyond.
- Organizing and supporting political causes and campaigns that put workers first.
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I'd like to politely ask you to cut out the insults.
That's the thing about classification: It doesn't respect the edges, where it's pretty much always getting fuzzy.
Here, it gets complicated: Since it's highly incentivised by capitalism to invest your capital, most "upper middle class" people don't actually have all that money sitting in a bank somewhere. It's usually invested somewhere which makes them (partial) rent-seekers and extractors of other people's surplus value. This is where the edges get fuzzy.
However, adding a cathegory of middle class, while vaguely pointing in a general socio-economic direction isn't helpful for discussions about capitalism. The broad strokes of capitalist and wage-dependent class still stands. And adding further distinctions could help understanding a more gomplex model. But it's never used this way. Whenever you hear someone talk about some "middle class", 80% of the time, it's about populism and not about some deeper economic analysis. And if it's used for populism, it's always used to divide the wage-dependant/working class.
Can you give a coherent definition of middle class? I'-e never come across one that makes sense.
It's someone for whom money isn't a daily concern, but is still a resource that can run out. They might have to plan for their yearly vacation, or have to discuss the next car purchase, but wouldn't have a problem buying things or eating out. If you're looking for a more specific definition of "makes below $$$" then you're not going to get it, because that's not how any of this works.
This is why you people will never actually get anything useful accomplished in society. You're so intent on fighting against human nature, and playing victim of "exploited surplus labor value" that you simply can't understand that there IS value in capital investment risk. It's simply not the case that 1 unit of labor = 1 unit of money.
So you admit that you don't have an accurate definition. That's a shame.
I beg to differ. The whole concept o class analysis doesn't make any sense, if you have these wobbly definitions of classes.
Lol. Please read a history book.
I think I have a more thorough grasp on "human nature" than you do. That's the whole deal of anarchists (Kropotkin, Graeber, Bookchin, ...).
Capitalists don't take investment risks anymore. Surplus value is a model that's used to describe a system. I don't make the mistake or confusing the model with reality.
This is the exact same stupid argument that conservatives use when the answer to "what is a woman" is "it's complicated". Some things don't have neat, concise, 1 sentence definitions
The rest of your post is not really a response to anything I wrote. I have read plenty of history books. And you saying capitalists don't take investment risk is just baffling tbh
Apples and oranges. We're doing class analysis here, not gender studies. The former is an exercise in modelling, the latter describes complex societal distributed systems.
I have written that you've got a wrong grasp on class analysis. You've not demonstrated that you've understood class analysis.
As soon as you got your first billion, you pretty @uch can't lose it anymore on the market. Look at Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc. And they haven't even invested their own capital to grow their empires. Entrepreneurial risks my ass.
Edit: I just realized how you just tried to weazel out of the discussion. You've brought up "human nature" and I refuted your argument. Claiming I didn't doesn't make you less wrong about human nature.
And "people like me" never getting anything done: There have been countless liberatory revolutions in history. Apparently, all the boks you've supposedly read left that bit out.
We not talking about billionaires. That's the whole point. You're so focused on "class analysis" and fitting into your predefined terms that you can't even see that the whole point of the discussion is that there's not a clear delineation between classes, which is precisely why "middle class" is important.
In what way have you refuted anything?
U sure?
Yes, there is. Working class, owning class. If there's not a clear delineation between classes, your definitions are whack.
By bringing up Bookchin, Graeber and Kropotkin. More of a statement that you've actually made about human nature.
If you disagree, then please elaborate why "people like [me]" don't understand human nature.