This was a really good summary of what Rust feels like in my opinion. I'm still a beginner myself but I recognize what this article is saying very much.

The hacker news comments are as usual very good too:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40172033

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[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 27 points 6 months ago (22 children)

That being said, there is an overwhelming force in the Rust community that when anyone mentions they're having problems with Rust the language on a fundamental level, the answer is "you just don't get it yet, I promise once you get good enough things will make sense". This is not just with Rust, if you try using ECS you're told the same thing. If you try to use Bevy you'll be told the same thing. If you try to make GUIs with whichever framework you choose (be it one of the reactive solutions or immediate mode), you'll be told the same thing. The problem you're having is only a problem because you haven't tried hard enough.

Ugh, I hate this attitude in the Rust community. It's the elitist neckbeard attitude the early linux forums were known for that's still present in places like the Arch community.

The best advice I read about these places is to avoid them and just do stuff that works. Writing Haskell and don't want to worry about whatever highbrow computer science gatekeeping concepts? Use the beautiful escape hatch to imperative programming: monads. do { blablabla }. Is the Rust borrow checker complaining about ownership? A quick .clone() to a new variable will probably shut it up and allow you to move on. "Ermagerd, scripts should be in bash and only readable to you!", a quick ruby or python script should solve that for you. "systemd is -", just stop reading there and keep using systemd. It does the job.

This is where experienced people will often say that this becomes less of an issue once you get better at the language. My take is, while that is 100% true, there's a fundamental problem of games being complex state machines where requirements change all the time.

This is probably the best argument in the article. Rust is probably great for systems that don't have a lot of changing requirements, but fast iteration and big changes probably aren't its strong suit. I've found that planning a project ahead of time has reduced the amount of refactoring needed regardless of language, but that's because I was solving a static problem and thinking of a little bit of flexibility towards other features. Games probably aren't like that.

No language fits every usecase and it's completely find for it not to fit this dude's flow of writing games nor the types of games he's writing. It's a good thing he came to the conclusion sooner than later.

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[–] asdfasdfasdf@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago (20 children)

Rust is probably great for systems that don't have a lot of changing requirements, but fast iteration and big changes probably aren't its strong suit.

I agreed up until this. Fearless refactoring is a huge benefit of Rust. If the type system of another language allows the refactoring more easily without as many compilation failures, it will probably surface more runtime bugs.

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 5 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Fearless refactoring is a huge benefit of Rust.

That's not the issue. The issue is the borrow checker making things slower to write. Changing requirements isn't just moving code back and forth, it's changing the existing code, moving it around, adding new dependencies, using existing code in a new way, and so on. Not easy to do if the borrow checker is screaming at you about some moved ownership.
That's what dynamically typed languages are good at: pass in a dict/object/hashmap/whatever with some attributes to test something out, pass that around, transform it, add keys/fields, extract parts of it, transform them and return those, etc., see that it's working, and then you refactor it with proper typing, linting, and tests where a borrow checker is very very welcome.

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[–] wkk@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

Antagonizing the borrow checker is wrong. If it screams it does so to prevent you from writing a mistake. Eventually once you have enough experience you should write code in such a way that doesn't trip the borrow checker because you know how to properly handle your references.

Is it difficult to learn at first? Yes, but the benefits of learning this outweighs the downsides such as writing code that may use references when it shouldn't.

I'm not a Rust aficionado, but the few Rust I've written opened my eyes on issues that I have been dealing with in other languages but for which I was blind.

Lastly I tried following a Godot project tutorial that was using GDScript except I challenged myself to follow it but rewrite the examples given using Rust's bindings for Godot. It was definitely more cumbersome to work with, but I might also have been doing something wrong (such as blindly transcribing GDscript instead of writing more idiomatic Rust).

All of that to say 1) borrow checker is your friend and 2) scripting languages will always be more convenient at the cost of being way more dirty (way less safeties)

In the end you need to pick the right tool for the job. Multiple tools may be used within the same project.

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