this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2024
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Solarpunk Urbanism

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[–] Soup@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago (35 children)

Why the illegal part, though? People don’t really need an incentive to have shelter. It just punishes people who are struggling with even deeper issues.

[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 31 points 3 months ago (10 children)

Technically it's not illegal to sleep on the street, but there are sanitation rules regarding it. NYC has 8 million people. Any problem you can think of is magnified. It's literally a sanitary issue if you allow thousands of people to camp outside.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/26/nyregion/nyc-homeless-camp-bill-of-rights.html

In New York City, there are many rules on the books that have been used to restrict sleeping rough.

One is a piece of sanitation code that makes it unlawful to leave “any box, barrel, bale or merchandise or other movable property” or to erect “any shed, building or other obstruction” on “any public place.”

In city parks, it is illegal to “engage in camping, or erect or maintain a tent, shelter or camp” without a permit, or to be in a park at all between 1 a.m. and 6 a.m. unless posted rules state otherwise.

And on the property of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, both underground and in outdoor elevated subway stations, it is a form of banned disorderly conduct to “sleep or doze” in any manner that “may interfere” with the comfort of passengers. Nor may subway riders “lie down or place feet on the seat of a train, bus or platform bench or occupy more than one seat” or “place bags or personal items on seats” in ways that “impede the comfort of other passengers.”

Note that these rules also restrict people who have homes too. No one can have a party in the park after hours or take up a ton of space on the subway. Note also that you can sleep outside if you don't get in the way.

someone who did not violate any of those rules — say, someone who set a sleeping bag in an out-of-the-way spot under a highway overpass and did not put up any kind of shelter — was legally in the clear, at least in theory.

[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Note that these rules also restrict people who have homes too. No one can have a party in the park after hours or take up a ton of space on the subway. Note also that you can sleep outside if you don’t get in the way.

[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

This doesn't apply because the law doesn't forbid anyone from sleeping under bridges. Also, you can get housing for free. That's my point. It's the opposite of that quote. Unless you're pro-theft or something.

[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I am not sure what the housing situation is actually like for homeless in NYC because I've never spoken to anyone there who experienced it. I don't take your word for it that it's good or ethical.

I am not protheft. I'm not wealthy like that. https://www.edelson-law.com/blog/2022/10/wage-theft-outpaces-all-other-theft-in-america/

[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There are a ton of articles on it. The system is huge and has been around for decades. Look it up if you like. If you don't care, don't.

No one said it was good at all. It's a necessary service in a big city. Obviously some shelters are very different from others. None of them are at nice hotels, but you can get your own room and a place for some of your stuff.

The major complaints are usually "it's too small" or "they don't let me have pets". Guess what? There are actual apartments people pay for that are too small and don't allow pets. It's NYC.

I'm talking about reality in this century. You're quoting an 1800s writer from another country. The system is a complicated solution to a complicated problem. So there's not going to be any simple answer, and definitely not from online quotes.

[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago

If you lack a sense of humor and can't see how close your quote was to his, that's fine. It was funny to me and maybe others. That you haven't learned something people were joking about hundreds of years ago is kinda on you.

The effects of violating these fair and just laws - do they impact the homeless and the housed the same? Do the laws, say, give fines based on income? Or do they give preferential treatment to people with better, often more expensive lawyers?

But no, your statement wasn't silly at all. The law is totally fair to the poor and wealthy alike.

I would have to talk to a homeless person who was homeless recently in NYC and used these programs to assess them.

Where should they leave their pets, ESAs, and service dogs when they stay in the shelter? Do you think roaming packs of dogs at night would be good?

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It's a glowed up version of "The law binds both rich and poor equally". A transparently untrue statement that's meant to draw attention to laws that are a mere inconvenience for the rich but seriously hurt the poor.

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