Cross-posted from "TRUE communism!" by @Muaddib@sopuli.xyz in !politicalmemes@lemmy.world
this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2025
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Always good to fight other leftists as fascism closes its grip on the imperial core. Great strategy.
(Posts like this aren't allowed on Hexbear, and for good reason. What value is there in shitstirring like this? Why be needlessly antagonistic? I really don't get it.)
... You don't get it?
This is an Anarchist instance.
Anarchists are extremely critical of the concept of 'the State' itself, tend to want to either totally abolish it, or at least strip it down so much or break it apart that it essentially isn't a 'State' any more.
Tankies embrace, and essentially worship the State.
... Also, in basically every single recorded instance of a succesful or attempted leftist revolution in modern human history, tankies ally with anarchists to overthrow the existing State, and then murder all of them after they've established themselves as the new State or proto-State.
One could argue that it seems to be in the material interest of authoritarian statists to extend false allyship to 'fellow leftists', and then betray them as quickly as they abandon their ideal of a 'classless society' and begin to assert themselves as the new ruling class.
There's a 101 level answer for your 'why so antagonistic' question.
Tankies historically cry 'Unity! Unity!' and do exactly what you are doing, trying to shame those who are skeptical... and then the rhetoric flips on a dime and the cry switches to 'Purity! Faith!'
...
Also worth noting is your framing of this as antagonistic in the first place.
I guess you find the evidence of history thus far to largely be antagonistic to your worldview?
I don't know, I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth, but that is my assumption.
I could be wrong though.
Ah yes, the evidence of history. Like all the successful anarchist revolutions?
I am not aware of any anarchists that even predict that some kind of anarchist revolution is any kind of inevitable.
And if there were some, I would disagree with them.
I am not purpoting to have some kind of perfect plan to 'achieve anarchism'.
I don't need to.
It's ya'll that tend to have a dogmatic, ideological faith in a perfect way to do things, that things should be done, that things inevitably will be done.
...
Anyway, the evidence of history I am referring to is that basically all self described 'Communist' states/societies haven't ever really come close to Marx's utopian conception of a classless society at the proverbial 'end' of Communism...
They mostly either reform or transform themselves into a highly state-managed form of capitalism, or into something with less overt direct state control over a hybrid state/capitalist economy, allowing private businesses and capitalists to operate under fairly significant levels of regulation...
Both of those will almost always only ever allow a single political party, clamp down on freedom of political association/expression, speech, etc... these societies very much still do have significant wealth disparity, ergo, social classes.
...
And those're pretty much the best case scenarios.
They can also just collapse into... well basically, roughly fascism; a totalitarian, nationalistic, jingoistic central state that works with, grants favors to various capitalist oligarchs, corporations, as opposed to directly managing them or heavily regulating them...
In these societies, wealth disparity and thus class disparity tends to be even more significant... and they tend to put on a show of pretending to be liberal and democratic, though the extent of that effort ebbs and flows back toward social and governmental illiberalism over time.
It can get worse than that, but then we tend to get into 'thats not real communism' or basically just meme/schrodinger's irony level argument territory, at least in my prior experience or discussions with tankies.
...
I don't have a problem admitting that no anarchist revolution has succeeded in making a stable anarchist society at the scope and scale of a nation-state, with some kind of ... assumed authoritative forceful control over a defined physical region.
Partially because... that isn't really what at least I personally view as any kind of useful goal of my idea of anarchism.
...
If you doubt the history of tankies back stabbing anarchists... hold please, will update with source.
EDIT:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-tankies-and-the-left-unity-scam
There it is!
No sense in me retyping all of this myself.
EDIT 2:
Or maybe its this one:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/various-authors-always-against-the-tanks/
This person's works also include Burn the Bread Book, an anti-Anarcho-Communist screed in which they advocate for the end of civilization, and return to each person producing all their own food, an idea that is openly ecofascist and would kill billions, first and foremost a large number of disabled and chronically ill people.
I think you should carefully consider where your ideas are coming from.
People can can have some ideas or writings that are good, and some ideas or writings that are bad.
Other people can use their own brains to pick through those ideas on their own and formulate their own worldviews.
Which other genocidal anti-communist, anti-anarchist authors do you suggest have "some good ideas?"
Tell me you don't understand Marx without telling me you don't understand Marx
Edit: LMFAO YOU CITED ZIQ BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That was fast!
Sorry, I was trying to specifically use Lenin's conception/phrasing of "socialism" as the progressive process that builds society toward the idealized, but possibly not ever truly, perfectly achievable "communism".
Thats what I get for trying to use ML terms with an ML, I suppose.
So anyway, if a classless society is not the ultimate end goal of Marx, of Marxism... what would you describe the end goal of Marxism as?
You don't think perhaps it was the word "utopian," a word which in the discussion of various different socialist tendencies generally refers to the Utopian Socialists, a group that Marx vocally criticized?
(Which anyone with a decent understanding of Marx would know, and therefore avoid using the word in a description of Marxist goals.)
Does it ever occur to you that mandating a mastery of an esoteric vocabulary and history as the first step toward being elligible for 'left-unity'... is not exactly appealing to, or a reasonable expectation for prospective new members of such a 'left-unity' broad social movement?
Are you trying to be an elitist clique, or a movement that broadly represents large masses of poor, tired, busy, overworked, poorly educated people?
So you also don't know what "esoteric" means? Interesting.
-an anarchist btw
I would expect someone trying to criticize something to have the most basic familiarity with it, yes.
You've been talking down to me this entire time and you claim to have degrees in both economics and political science, and you're now complaining that I'm being elitist for pointing out that you're not actually familiar with my ideology in any depth?
Oof yeah, words can have multiple meanings in different contexts and change over time as well.
I meant it in the more common lingo that normal people mean by the word utopian, an idealized human society that is the best for all its members of any possible society.
Sorry, I don't spend that much time getting into online arguments with MLs and Socialism Understanders these days, as they tend to be so very, very pedantic and unproductive.
See how you almost got me to not notice you didn't even attempt to answer my most pertinent question?
Two faced dishonest hypocrite.
Note: this isn't an ad hominem because I'm not trying to dismiss an idea here, just point out that you're a contemptible person
Ukraine for example, before the "allied" communists betrayed and hunted down the anarchists
Look, I'm not trying to justify everything the Bolsheviks did during the Russian Civil War. I don't know enough of the history to make a judgment call on most of that stuff. So I'm going to leave the question of morality entirely aside on this one.
But I don't think you can call your revolution successful if, within a few years, some external force is able to show up, wreck everything you were doing, and take over. It's not enough to just temporarily wrest control away and set up your committees and your resource distribution system and declare victory. You have to establish long-term security and stability. If you don't, you haven't had a successful revolution.
Valid point. I'd say that it's inevitable for a large force with popular legitimacy and support to best a force with a similar percentage of but less-due-to-geographical-resources popular legitimacy and support, but I see arguing that would be moving the goalposts. So to engage that directly I would say that the AANES (Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, commonly known as Rojava) is as anarchist as the USSR was communist. It's been there for well over a decade now.
I could quibble over the circumstances (and, unfortunately, likely outcomes in the near future), or argue about your dig at the USSR, but honestly I'm more inclined to cede the point on this. I don't really have anything against anarchists or anarchism; I was mostly just giving a flippant answer to that other commenter, who was being a smug jerk.