this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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I recently saw Alex's video about XMPP and I got curious.

I am using Element and Schildichat a bit, trying Element X and curious about the new Development here. It seems vibrant, they rewrite stuff in rust, the Apps are fancy and all.

But I tried Conversations and it seems based too, has transparent encryption, it is damn fast, usable, supports groups and files and all. Probably doesnt use the latest fancy Android SDKs but it seems solid.

I was surprised about how fast it was, as Matrix drastically varies per server. But also I found many dead communities, and in general I dont see XMPP at all, while many Projects (if not using Discord, bruh...) have a Matrix room.

How secure is OMEMO in todays standards? Or OpenPGP, compared to Matrix or Signal Encryption? I heard it also has rotating keys and all.

There are other things, like permission systems, chosen federation, privacy, bridge support and more, that are interesting. Are there advanced modern WebUIs for XMPP you like?

I saw that it uses up waaay less resources, why is that? Really, is "simply encrypted mail" somehow worse in an important way?

Similar to IRC, where I never found nice usable apps for my taste, I thought XMPP was deprecated, but that doesnt seem so?

What can you tell me about XMPP, is it modern, secure, privacy friendly?

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[–] TheAgeOfSuperboredom@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Can you elaborate on what you mean that Matrix is a closed protocol? The spec is open and there are several server and clients to choose from.

[–] TCB13@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Matrix is developed by a for profit entity, a group of venture capitalists and having a spec doesn't mean everything. XMPP is an open standard, truly open and if you notice you've had a lot of implementations of it all able to properly integrate with each other without effort.

The way Matrix is designed is to force into jumping through hoops and kind of draw all attention to Matrix itself instead of the end result. The kind of open collaboration where the protocol becomes mostly invisible for the end user isn't just the objective of Matrix.

[–] TheAgeOfSuperboredom@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Sorry, but nothing you mentioned has anything to do with Matrix not being an open protocol. I don't know what you mean by "truly open". It sounds like a "no true Scotsman" argument.

The spec is absolutely open, and you can see it in what I linked. There are also several servers and several clients if you don't like one written by the Matrix or Element folks. Heck, there's even a client for emacs! Now there are compatibility issues since not every server and client implements the entire protocol yet, but that's not an issue of openness. I used to run into problems all the time with XMPP way back when for similar reasons. I even recall something about Google breaking the XMPP protocol in some ways and causing problems.

I'm not even sure your claim of VC funding is true, since the faq mentions several non VC sources of funding. I couldn't find anything about VC at element.io, so maybe it's hidden there, or something has changed a matrix.org?

Still, discussion about not liking their business model is orthogonal to whether the protocol is open or not. Maybe we run the risk of them pulling a HashiCorp and changing some licensing down the road, which would be terrible. But I think it's dishonest to say it's not open.

[–] vintprox@kbin.melroy.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think some people don't give any room to breathe to projects that just want major contributors be paid, even when, as you rightfully say, XMPP had the same compatibility struggles in its infancy as Matrix implementations now have.

So far, there is a lot of FUD around newer protocol and that it lacks in openness. But if you look again, it recognizes versions and differences between them in the specification. Every MSC proposal covers the context of change and recommendations to implement, while keeping backwards-compatibility with older software in mind. If you make a proposal, it will be reviewed. If you need someone else besides Spec Core Team members to move it forward, flag to you - fork. But I rather prefer this model in upstream than beating around the bush and electing someone who might have lost an idea of why they are still in the project.

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