this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2025
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No Stupid Questions

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You'd think a hegemony with a 100-years tradition of upkeeping democracy against major non-democratic players, would have some mechanism that would prevent itself from throwing down it's key ideology.

Is it really that the president is all that decides about the future of democracy itself? Is 53 out of 100 senate seats really enough to make country fall into authoritarian regime? Is the army really not constitutionally obliged to step in and save the day?

I'd never think that, of all places, American democracy would be the most volatile.

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[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Impeachment. That's it.

But you're also forgetting that in the US states have a significant amount of power. For example the President cannot cancel elections. If a state cancels elections they just don't get counted.

There's a lot in that particular area that shields people from federal government stupidity.

[–] Soggy@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They can ignore election results though, or fraudulently certify them.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 points 22 hours ago

If they ignore election results then they're illegitimate and the country is free to descend into chaos.

[–] Makeshift@sh.itjust.works 136 points 2 days ago (11 children)

We’re ignoring the constitution already.

14th Amendment. Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

The man is an adjudicated insurrectionist. Congress just ignored their duty.

So yes, there “are” protections. Said protections are simply being ignored.

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 171 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Impeachment, but that starts with a 218 vote in the House and the House is on his side.

[–] ddplf@szmer.info 72 points 2 days ago (17 children)

So you actually need majority to PREVENT the collapse of democracy, and if you don't have it, you're fucked? How the fuck did this country even manage not to succumb into dictatorship for such a long time?

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 109 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

Worse... The House makes the impeachment charge, that's a 50% majority vote.

THEN it goes to the Senate for conviction where you need a 2/3rds majority to remove them. 67/100.

That's the body which can't do anything because they're blocked by a 60 vote super majority to over-ride a filibuster.

So you get 218 in the House, goes to the Senate, needs 60 votes to end debate and proceed with charges, then 67 votes to convict and remove.

Trump's first impeachment got 48 and 47 votes.
His second was 57 votes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_impeachment_trial_of_Donald_Trump

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_impeachment_of_Donald_Trump

If he had been convicted, he would have been inelligible to run in '24.

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[–] alleycat@lemmy.world 60 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

If enough people in a democracy decide that they want a dictatorship instead, then there is no stopping it, because rules don't matter at this point. The trick is to not let it get this far. Tough shit for the US, though.

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[–] hesusingthespiritbomb@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Just to be clear, your solution to saving democracy would be for the military to usurp a president who received the majority of the vote less than six months ago?

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 points 23 hours ago

The military has rules limiting what they can do, especially against acting within the US, and every service member is supposed to disobey illegal orders.

[–] door_in_the_face@feddit.nl 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Sometimes a voting population needs to be protected from the consequences of their vote, right? A good chunk of the German voting population in the 1930 voted the NSDAP and Hitler into power, and we can agree that it would have been for the best if that party and its leadership had been deposed ASAP. Now, the US isn't quite that far down the slide yet, but they're certainly slipping, and the worst part is that the checks and balances that are supposed to keep a president in line are also failing. Not to be alarmist, but we're in for a wild ride.

[–] hesusingthespiritbomb@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Your first question is pretty philosophical. All I can say, is that most representative governments place a huge emphasis on giving the people the power to write their own collective destiny.

A military takeover based on the desires of a minority of citizens would violate that principal. I don't think any reasonable person can call it saving democracy.

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[–] VerifiedSource@sh.itjust.works 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Sometimes a voting population needs to be protected from the consequences of their vote

Who should have the power to make that decision?

Do you want a benevolent king at the top that can dissolve parliament, dismiss government, call for new elections, make parties illegal, and censor the press?

Or maybe have something like an electoral college?

Or the army coups, if things get too far?

The ultimate check on power is the people. A general strike, large scale protests, and occupation of public buildings can topple a government. Institutions from military, police, local government, government agencies, and so on value their positions and won’t go down with a sinking ship.

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago

He's just a symptom of the real problem, which is that he exposed himself as a nazi a long time ago and still got reelected.

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 72 points 1 day ago (8 children)

The country just elected this guy knowing that this is what he would do. That's democracy.

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[–] Professorozone@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

Apparently that's what America wants. You mean for a possible future where it's a bad thing?

[–] BigBenis@lemmy.world 27 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Our government leans heavily on decorum and good faith. Trump's success has been due to his refusal to adhere to decorum and good faith. Our system doesn't know how to handle that other than shaming and shaking fists so Trump gets free reign to do whatever he wants.

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[–] Sgt_choke_n_stroke@lemmy.world 43 points 1 day ago (23 children)

The mechanism is the three branches of power providing checks and balances and voting. But when the people elect them to all three branches. It kinda defeats the purpose

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[–] MudMan@fedia.io 88 points 2 days ago (11 children)

The mechanism was the election.

I mean, sure, impeachment and whatnot, but it's not like people didn't know who this guy was. I can give other institutions a whole bunch of crap for not getting rid of the guy the first time, but when you've given him a Supreme Court supermajority, both chambers of Congress and the presidency AFTER he attempted a coup I'm gonna say that's on you, guys.

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[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 36 points 1 day ago (3 children)

The voters were supposed to be that check and the Framers were explicit in that it was part of how they designed the Constitution.

Even regarding electing a felon, the Framers didn't want a case where one state pushed through a a felony conviction quickly to keep someone out of office.

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[–] Juice@midwest.social 29 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (8 children)

In 1776, people didn't know what fascism was. Hell there wasnt even consensus on what capitalism was, Wealth of Nations was published that same year. They had never seen a capitalist system degenerate, as would happen in France under Louis Napoleon in the 1850s.

They knew what feudalism was, which was bad and a form of authoritarian autocracy, but this isn't Fascism. They were afraid that the kings and queens would get restored, as revolutionaries (and capitalism was revolutionary and progressive at that time) they were safeguarding against a counter revolution which would come from monarchists.

There is no way they could conceive of a movement to overthrow capitalism, which they barely understood although being the revolutionary capitalist class, that would come from a greater demand of social reforms, one where the class they were a part of would rule society rather than just administer it as they had for centuries, one where a class that they didn't even know about, the proletarian working class, would supplant them and bring greater prosperity and equality. This movement developed fully in Russia and Europe after the first world war when the last of the weakened feudal aristocracy destroyed their own continent to fight over scraps of colonial internationalism. A revolution in Russia inspired the global working class, especially where they were highly organized and industrialized such as Italy and Germany, and terrified the ruling capitalist classes of those countries.

In the shadow of the emerging workers movement grew the dialectical opposite and evil twin of German and Italian communism: Fascism. Fascists gleefully fight and kill communists, and desire power above all else, exploiting contradictions in liberal democracy (that's "liberal" meaning supports private property, not cool liberals that like freedom and justice) to confuse the masses and gain power. The ruling classes, weakened by decades of militant worker struggles, assented to the will of the fascists and in a last ditch effort to preserve their dwindling control, handed power over to them. The rest is history.

The founders couldn't conceive of the conditions you describe as they either didn't exist or wouldnt be developed enough to study for 50-70 years. Not all forms of authoritarianism are the same. They thought they were doing away with their version of it. Besides, the "founding fathers" gags violently would have fucking loved Trump

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[–] KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Second Amendment.

The odds aren't in our favor.

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[–] SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago (3 children)

You can impeach a president for any reason. You don't need a crime or such committed, all you need is congress to do it.

Be careful what you wish for though since the other party could do "tit for tat" with the president you support.

[–] thermal_shock@lemmy.world 31 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

not like it changed, he was impeached twice, didn't mean shit. he's a felonious racist rapist, doesn't mean shit.

USA made this bed, now we fucking lie in it.

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[–] dx1@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That gets to the root of the problem. We have "checks and balances" designed around the idea that separate institutions would check the excesses of each other. Even if you don't accept the "Republicans and Democrats work for the same people" theory, well, now all three branches of government are majority Republican, and not even in a way where there's significant internal division or strife, so it's just a bulldozer. The stupidity of not including popular recall votes in the Constitution - or really, just not having a mechanism for popular referendums, vetoes, etc. - is I think its biggest fault. The "representative democracy" model is inherently flawed because you can corrupt representatives, while corrupting an entire population, while not impossible, is a hell of a lot harder.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Check and Balance was intened to stop bad individuals, not an entire political party working in unison to destroy the system.

[–] dx1@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Honestly, no amount of careful planning and constitutional design will restrain a society where enough people have gone completely insane. Look at "Israel". Even 100% direct democracy there would still be a genocidal nightmare. Gets to the problem of how culture is the real driver behind the shape of society. And in that case, how religion incinerates real morality.

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