this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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The rapid explosion in "QB breakdown" videos this year from QBSchool, Kurt Warner, Brees, Daniels and a million copycats made me realize that they seem to have their own name for basically every route combination. "Oh yeah, I call this one Jimmy 2 Shift" proceeds to draw out the route combination.

I get that there are definitely some broad differences like Shanahan offenses leaning on zone run and bootlegs but it's not like they're running some extra special sauce right? Seems like everyone else knows the same plays and could just run more of them if they wanted to have a "Shanahan offense".

What is it that actually separates the quality of these different coordinators and schemes?

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[–] spammusubi0808@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Play callers are the juice. Take for instance the 2016 falcons. They had Kyle Shanahan calling plays. He left and the falcons let their whole offensive coaching staff go except for Raheem Morris who isn’t even an offensive coach. They had scored the second most points through the playoffs up until that point at somewhere around 33PPG and Matt Ryan won MVP. The next year they brought in Sarkasian and were lucky to score 20 per game.

[–] Lamactionjack@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Think the point OP is making is they're all the same plays more or less. League wide.

[–] gyman122@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Playcalling sequence and script is a huge part of it. You watch the Eagles for instance just hammer people with the same concepts that have been shown to be working and that’s very distinctive.

The personnel you lean on, heavy or light, can vary even when you run the “same” play concepts. Some teams (Rams) run outside zone from 11, others do a lot of outside zone from 21 (Vikings, 49ers, Dolphins), some will really only run it out of 12 or 13.

And even if a run concept/passing pattern is in like 80% of playbooks that doesn’t mean everybody’s running it the same amount.

[–] Enthusiasms@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Situational awareness

[–] JJBrandon69@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think in Lions OC Ben Johnson’s case, Detroit runs multiple fronts, and he does an incredible job of not having tendencies, or breaking his perceived tendencies at the perfect times. Giving the defense the same look a few times and then running something else out of it.

His playcalling throughout the entire game is all connected, and the Lions OL is asked to do quite a bit and excels at it all.

Being a good play caller isn’t just knowing the plays, or creative/trick plays, it’s knowing what the defense is thinking or lulling them into thinking a certain way.

[–] SuperSecretestUser@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

It's a copycat league, if you prove that a particular route combo works then everyone else is going to use it too. The thing that separates a decent coordinator from a great one is two things, being detail-oriented and being strategic.

Details matter when it comes to play design, making sure your receivers are running very specific routes in order to manipulate the defenders is the difference between a massive play and an incompletion. One of the things that JT O'Sullivan talked about a lot is that other teams are trying to use the new Dolphins motion where Tyreek sprints out right before the play starts, but these other teams don't do it as well because they don't have a player who's able to turn into their route while losing minimal speed like Tyreek can which ultimately makes the motion as effective as it is for the Fins. Great coordinators get the most out of their players through details like that.

Then on the strategy side of it, at some point you've seen a perfectly-timed screen pass where the defense is overcommitting and a play that should've gone for 3 yards goes for 30 instead. Knowing how the other team is feeling and taking advantage of that is huge.

[–] hairysonorth@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think it’s just a copycat league. So although OCs have different schemes, they also will copy plays from other people

[–] kj9219@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

A big part of what separates great playcallers from the rest is how they tie multiple plays together and figuring out the right situation to call which play.

[–] BlackMathNerd@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Sequencing, game script and understanding game flow is such a big part of it. Guys like Kyle and Shanny have such a great feel of when to call certain plays and know when the moment is right for things.

Others don’t have that feel.

[–] 4thTimesAnAlt@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So while concepts are going to be generally the same from coach to coach, it's the details that make schemes different. Take the mesh concept. Man beater with the 2 shallow crosses. Every coach has this in their playbook. But while one coach may run this in shotgun with 13 personnel, other coaches may prefer running it with 22 personnel from under center.

And what are the outside WRs doing? Is one running a deep in? A post? A curl or hitch? Is the RB blocking? Running a wheel route? Running a late-releasing curl in the middle of the field once the WRs have cleared the defenders out?

All those details, those subtle little changes, are what makes schemes so different.

[–] MelancholyWumpus@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Madden is a hell of a drug.

[–] Desarticulation@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Seems like everyone else knows the same plays

You're conflating passing concepts with plays.

You can run the same passing concept with different formations, different personnel grouping, different motions and different protection and you'll get two very different plays.

[–] Soham_Dame_Niners@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

It also based on when the play caller actually calls each play. A bad play caller may have a similar scheme to someone like McDaniel or Shanahan, but call it in the wrong situations and the calls don’t work.

[–] Soham_Dame_Niners@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

It also based on when the play caller actually calls each play. A bad play caller may have a similar scheme to someone like McDaniel or Shanahan, but call it in the wrong situations and the calls don’t work.

[–] istasber@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

When guys are breaking down the plays, they know the result. They are telling you "This looks like Jimmy 2 Shift" after seeing what routes the receivers run, and what order the QB looks at each of the players in his progression.

The goal of the OC is to make the result not-obvious for the defense. So they'll do things like run multiple plays out of the same formation (e.g. by changing route combinations, the order the play is read by the QB, giving receivers options based on what the defense is doing, run out of passing formations or pass out of running formations, etc).

The difference between offenses and OCs are how they mix and match some of those concepts, which formations/personnel groupings they favor, and when they choose to call which plays (e.g. to establish or exploit expctations).

[–] EnronRodgers@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Plays are about way more than just the playcall and the Xs and Os. Everyone knows the same basic set of plays, what really makes the difference are the tiny details that fans could not possibly understand. You have to worry about the play sequence, the combos, the rules within each play for how everyone matches up, the subtle differences in technique and leverage with every single player on the field. It's not just as simple as go run this route, its also about breaking off the same route 2 yds shorter or if the DBs are lined up a certain way, things like that. The actual playcalls are sort of universal, everyone knows what "all verts" means, but there are an infinite number of tiny variations in terms of the specific rhythm and timing and the players you line up and how you motion them around, etc etc etc, which can force a slight hesitation from the defense, which is how big plays are actually made in the nfl. People think playcallers just call "the right plays" whatever that means, but it really comes down to extremely minor details and clever little nuances that you would only notice if you were an nfl coach.