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If you misbehave, sure, but this is not misbehaving. This is a crime. One that hasn’t been proven to have happened at all.
That is a major issue. Kicking someone out of university is a life-changing punishment, and should not be taken so lightly when someone may be innocent. There should be rules about that and I don’t think this should be normalized.
Getting fired is life changing yet we accept that we could be fired at any time for no reason here in the US. Protections against getting arbitrarily kicked out of a private university would require legislation. Right now that's a risk you assume when you go to a private institution versus a public one.
That is also a problem. But getting kicked out of university for supposed rape when you’re innocent is a life sentence. No decent job will ever hire you.
The fact that this shit happens all the time doesn’t mean you have to normalise it. It’s not normal.
Actually it's a pre requisite for being a politician or clergy member.
Earns you a golden toilet even
What do you think having to drop out of University because of the trauma of being raped does to a person?
So two wrongs make a right? This person had their life horribly disrupted for reason A so an unrelated person should have their life horribly disrupted for reason B?
People should not be subject to arbitrary harm from others and we should be against all forms of it, whether that's sexual assault, economic coercion or lack of due process.
When universities hide evidence, don't report to authorities, and otherwise dodge investigating rape accusations, then people aren't going to trust when they exonerate these men.
This is on the system that protects these rapists.
Due process is also a system that can make things like racism, sexism, nepotism harder. Also outside of universities people often feel like the legal system protects offenders, but it in a well functioning system it also protects them. After all, without due process, rape victims themselves can also be expelled by universities.
And when a legal system doesn't work, it needs fixing. People fought hard for legal protections to put in place in the first place.
Over 90% of perpetrators of sexual assault and rape never see the inside of a courtroom.
It needs fixing.
I don't know about this case, if that is true then its terrible and he should have been arrested, convicted and thrown out of the university. But the larger point stands, denying some people of due process because others are harmed in other ways is not something to strive for.
The rape victims at these universities deserve due process as well. As in a legit investigation and not hiding of evidence to protect these men.
Absolutely, I haven't seen anyone in this thread say anything suggesting otherwise, everyone deserves that. But that means not throwing people out of a university without evidence.
Universities don’t throw people out because they hide the evidence
Obviously being raped is worse. I’m not trying to start a competition or shouting match here.
My point is solely and entirely about the basic human right of due process: anyone should be considered innocent until proven guilty, no matter the gender or crime. That doesn’t mean don’t believe the accuser, but it means really take the charges seriously, investigate the crime to the best of your system’s abilities and if after all that there is insufficient evidence, there should be no conviction. Not by the justice system or the university. If he is guilty, as with any other crime, the system has failed. But until there is some major breakthrough, this is the best system we have.
As a more general point: the US is already falling into a society of lawlessness. Now you don’t have to go all Michelle Obama “When they go low, we go high” but at least don’t play their hand by inciting more lawlessness. I really don’t think you will win that war…
No, innocent until proven guilty is only the bar for the government to lock you up in a cage. It's impossible for anyone to live their life using that standard.
Not when universities have the ability to hide evidence and obfuscate real investigations in order to protect these men. Which they have done time and time again.
This is not the best system we have. We can't even get the police to process rape kits.
Then fight for a better system, like I said, but don’t incite lawlessness or start an argument with the one person advocating for due process.
Why do you think these stories are getting such traction right now?
These investigations were corrupt.
Then reinvestigate and improve the system, but don’t let yourself fade into even more lawlessness. Like I said before, this is an arms race you will not win against the likes of Trump and his cronies. They will always one-up you in ways your own consciousness won’t even let you imagine.
What the fuck do you think we're doing when we talk openly about these things with righteous anger? What the fuck do you think we're doing when we demand that universities no longer sweep these accusations aside?
Geez Velma, calm the fuck down please. What is it with you trying to get into an argument with whoever you can? Why are you even arguing with someone who wants the same thing you do?
Digging up every old case and publicly shaming the alleged perpetrators is, and will always be the definition of lawless. You’re simply not a judge. You don’t know the facts nor the evidence.
Public pressure can do wonders for making change.
Geez, Photonic, maybe if more people pushed back on some of the absolute horrid takes I've seen around, I wouldn't make it a point to be so outspoken.
Oh, it's your creepy ass again:
Yeah I can continue to not give any of your opinions weight. Thanks!
I am pushing back on your horrid take on lawlessness. If you think my take on advocating for due process is horrid I don’t know what to tell you. (I do, but you’ve gotten worked up enough already).
I left one public comment in a public forum and never talked to you again. Please explain in detail how that is creepy.
You could, but it wouldn’t make you any better for it. And you really need some better.
It was not one comment and you followed me along multiple posts.
Cry harder.
Followed? Come on, really? I saw one comment that was literally about me, and one the next day in a community I frequent because I saw you doing the exact thing I said you were doing to do.
Two posts, two different days. Then I never talked to you again until you replied to my comment here.
You really are a weird one. I’m starting to feel some tears here indeed, but not from sadness that’s for sure 😂
Then maybe Cornell shouldn’t have impeded a real investigation here.
I don’t see a Cornell in this story. Do you mean the university? (I honestly don’t know, not from the US)
If that’s the case: absolutely, the university should not have a say in what is a matter of the law.
Cornell is currently in the news for covering up a gang rape two years ago. It’s come out they withheld evidence from the DA and the police and DA never investigated properly.
Columbia has similar skeletons in their closet.
I didn’t know about that, but I don’t know why it has any relevance to my comment: I’m advocating for due process and you pose an obstruction of that very due process as somehow contradictory to my statement.
You have no idea the conversations you're actually having in here then.
I have an idea about the Wikipedia page I read. That is what I replied to. I also have an opinion about due process, which I am very well aware of.
You tried to pull some other case into it that I wasn’t even talking about and now you try to accuse me of having no idea about the entire discussion before that?
Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look like a fool? You really couldn’t do a better job if you tried.
Says the person who stalked me to push that I'm a MAGA psyop. I don't attach any weight to any of your opinions.
Stalked? Where? Please enlighten me with your definition of stalking. You’re leaving multiple comments to my one that wasn’t even a reply to you.
Don’t tell me you actually bought that, Velma? That would be hilarious.
lol stating what you did doesn’t mean I believed you.
Oh? What’s this then?
Yeah you were pushing it multiple times. That doesn’t mean I believed your trolling attempt. Do you routinely struggle with reading comprehension?
I do not. Nor am I now.
Here are the 13 possible meaning of the word “push”
to apply steady force to (something) in order to move it
to thrust (one's way) through something, such as a crowd, by force
to apply oneself vigorously (to achieving a task, plan, etc)
(tr) to encourage or urge (a person) to some action, decision, etc
to be an advocate or promoter (of)
(tr) to use one's influence to help (a person)
to bear upon (oneself or another person) in order to achieve more effort, better results, etc
(tr) to take undue risks, esp through overconfidence, thus risking failure
(intr) to act overconfidently
sport to hit (a ball) with a stiff pushing stroke
informal (tr) to sell (narcotic drugs) illegally
(intr; foll by out, into, etc) (esp of geographical features) to reach or extend
(tr) to overdevelop (a photographic film), usually by the equivalent of up to two stops, to compensate for underexposure or increase contrast
slang to be dead and buried
Now I comprehend that you don’t mean that I was pushing a boulder or pushing drugs, and your anger makes it obvious you don’t think I was trying to help you, so I’m thinking more along the lines of #3 or #5. Now both of these, as I comprehend them, mean you take your task or theory quite seriously.
Now I don’t want to push your buttons any further and English isn’t my first language, nor my second, but I do think I have a valid point here.
A whole novel just for me! WOW 😍 didn’t read it though lol
Ah well, most was plagiarism anyway. A pity, you might have learned something.
Do you often struggle with longer sections? Is it because of your impaired reading comprehension?