Technology

(Eh, fuck it, I already spent this much time on it. Part 2:)

But the point is it wouldnt be better than a “substack without nazis”. Like not every board on 4 chan is overrun with nazis, not every section of twitter is controlled by chuds. There are "good’ parts to each website, just like substack. But if they removed nazis from their site entirely then all 3 would only get better.

Then can you name a single website or hell even a physical publication or space or anything of the sort that went from “Nazis arent tolerated” to “Nazis are tolerated” and actually got better? That helped people de-radicalise instead of just serving Nazi propaganda, giving them money and helping them recruit?

Pretty much any forum that includes Nazis will get worse as a result, yes. Absolutely 100%. That's why I wouldn't ever "force" a forum operator to include Nazis if they don't want to. But:

Like your core argument is that its better to let them shout their propaganda as it will actually hinder them right?

Yes. Absolutely yes. With a caveat but mainly, yes.

Nazi ideology is abhorrent. Most people hate it. Most people, if they find out it's going on in their community, are going to be fucking disgusted, and curious to know more about where the fuck is this even coming from. I absolutely think that Nazis feeling like they can be open about being Nazis is way better than keeping secretive and doing the same shit they would be doing, just without associating in the public sphere. I'd be happy to check with experts on extremism to make sure that they feel the same, if you're open to hearing it.

Basically, if a forum is open to signing up to be the lightning-rod of bad faith they're going to get from the Nazis, and abuse they're going to get from the wider community, and degradation their forum is going to suffer as a result, in order to let the Nazis into the public sphere so that people can see for real what's going on, and talk back to the Nazis directly instead of having all the Nazi-to-Nazi communication go on in some other place that the public isn't privy to, I think that's a good thing. 100%. I think that's going to hurt the Nazis. Again, I'd be happy to check with experts on extremism to make sure that they feel the same, if you're open to hearing it.

The caveat: That doesn't mean I'm naive about the danger of letting these ideologies have a good foothold in society. You said "let them shout their propaganda"... I think combating Nazi propaganda is an important thing to do, yes. I think putting Nazis out of business or in prison because of their crime is fuckin' fantastic.

I think it's extremely important to combat Nazi propaganda when it comes in more subtle form, pipelines, engineered disinformation, or things without Swastikas (your TPUSAs and your Patriot Fronts). Those, to me, are much more dangerous than Substack blogs with swastikas. That's a different thing from kicking the swastikas off Substack though.

Im non binary, and have many trans friends. People used to not give a shit until the right organised together to hate us. Now because of your glorious free speech they have been given a pass to be awful disgusting human being and spread their hate and ive lost 3 friends in 5 years to suicide because of it, because of things you think should be not only protected by law, but actively given a platform, advertised and monetised by companies like sub stack.

I am sorry for your loss. I've lost a friend to suicide. It sucked.

Is the lives of those people a good trade for you?

I want to talk to you about this, because I take it pretty seriously and obviously the rise of hatred on the internet is a huge problem.

I'm a little hesitant to say more because I don't want to sound like I'm probing for information about something so personal or using it to "debate" with you. That's honestly not my goal here. If you're open to talk more I can tell you what I think would be a good ways to actually reduce hatred on the internet. I'm going to say this with all the kindness in the world: Kicking the Nazi blogs off Substack isn't going to do shit. Not in the sense of "too small but any little bit is helpful." In the sense of "counterproductive, putting you and your friends in more danger."

Tell you what -- if you're comfortable, explain it to me. What type of hatred has directly impacted you, what needs to happen to fix things in your view. Any level of detail that you're comfortable with, if at all. My goal is more just to explain myself and hear you out as opposed to "debate," so let me hear you out.

(Edit: Reframing it so we're talking about "hatred against trans people on 4chan" and what to do about it instead of "Nazi philosophy on Substack" and what to do about it makes a lot of what you're saying and how you're reacting make more sense. Nazis are going to be pretty rare, although they're out there. Anti-trans people are in the modern climate everywhere. That's why I'm asking more directly for the root of what you're talking about.)

are you just going to ignore this question like ignored all the other questions that would have uncomfortable answers for you?

Which questions didn't I answer? I'll address anything you want to ask me if I missed any questions before or anything.

I don’t feel the same way about murder.

Why though?

I feel like you may be wanting to "debate" this, like until one of us "wins," which isn't my goal here. But if what I wrote before wasn't a good enough explanation to understand my point of view, here goes:

I don't feel the same way about murder because humans don't naturally tend to murder each other. It does happen in certain circumstances, but there's actually a massive resistance to it internally. Militaries have to do careful psychological training to make sure people are ready to kill because there's so much resistance. Most people tell each other what they think at least once a day, and communication networks for formally sharing each other's opinions get a lot of use. Most people go their whole lives without murdering one another other. Even in societies with permitted circumstances where people can kill each other and it's fine, it's a pretty rare thing.

In conclusion, using a communication network to share your ideas is a fairly natural thing. More so than murder.

Does that answer the question? Again, you don't have to agree with me on this point of view, but it's honestly a little hard for me to believe that my explanation wasn't a coherent explanation of what I think. If you're using "why" as code for "I want to argue, say something to 'prove' your side and convince me, let's keep going back and forth about it," I would prefer not to.

The Nazis were allowed to hold rallies and publish newspapers in Germany too. Thats how they became so powerful, and how they became powerful in the US too, that is until the bombing of pearl harbour and the government raiding the headquarters of The German American Bund and arresting their leaders. After which American Nazi’s lost all their influence. funny that. And then they’ve never been able to gain power in any country that has taken a strong stance against them. And you can use communism as an example too, communists were never able to gain influence in the west and especially America, despite how popular the idea was because of the active effort that went into stopping them.

I think we may just not be able to see eye to eye on this.

• The German American Bund was prosecuted for breaking the law. Not for being Nazis, although I'm sure that the realpolitik of them getting extra heat because they were Nazis was a huge factor. We were mid World War 2 when this was happening.
• Before and during (!) the war, they were "allowed" to operate, only prosecuted if they broke other unrelated laws, which they seemed to be doing.
• ... as are modern neo-Nazi organizations.

(Side note, if that Wikipedia article is to be believed, the Black Panthers got treated way worse than the Bund. No one assassinated any Bund leaders like they did Fred Hampton, at least according to the article.)

Do you agree with what I just wrote so far? Agree that those three bullet points are factually accurate, at least? I feel like there's so much gulf between how we see these events that it's gonna be tough to find any type of common ground here.

Well I wouldnt know any off the top of my head, but a quick google shows plenty of results

https://news.sky.com/story/warwick-students-expelled-and-fined-after-racist-messages-11402539#:~:text=The Midlands university expels three,declaring love for Adolf Hitler.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/11/23/a-self-proclaimed-nazi-is-banned-from-his-college-campus-in-florida-but-allowed-to-remain-a-student/

(Edit: Ken Parker wasn't expelled. He was still allowed to attend online classes, and presumably to speak in those classes and all. They just kicked him off campus because of physical safety concerns, which sounds pretty fucking justified)

Those people are being ~~expelled~~ because of a wide variety of stuff, including Naziism, but also posting favorably about rape, holding assault rifles and saying he'll "shut down" other students, a lot more than just "being Nazis." It sounds like they were ~~expelled~~ for things I'm fully in favor of expelling people for. I'm talking about someone like Richard Spenser -- who says Nazi things but only rarely commits actual physical crimes (although often enough to put himself in trouble).

It looks from a quick search like there are multiple universities that have invited him to speak, so it'd be surprising if any student who emulated him was instantly expelled right after they invited him to speak. Do you have an example of something like that?

and again to use communism as a counter example, universities are where many people become socialist/communist because the organise there and can get the word out. If Nazis were allowed to do the same you would have much higher rates of kids becoming nazis.

I think we are simply too far apart in how we see the world to have this conversation. I'm getting sort of echoes of religious people who say "But if God isn't there to punish you what's to stop you doing rape and murder?"

Most people in my circle of people I know consider themselves "allowed" to start to follow Nazi ideology, if they want to. 0% of them do it because they're not fucking psychopaths (or even if they are, not to that level). In college, it was the same. Communism as an ideology (the Karl Marx version at least) doesn't involve exterminating any inferior races, so people are more into it. You really believe that if people were "allowed" to be Nazis, a lot of them would? The only reason communism gets more followers is communists are "allowed" and Nazis are not?

Let me ask you a 100% sincere question. Who is it that should decide what is "allowed" and not? The university administration? State or federal government? Student organization threatening boycotts if people start to "allow" the wrong types of ideologies? Who?

(Spent too much time on this, I'll write up a part 2 that includes replies to the rest of your message later on.)