this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2023
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Leftism

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[–] masquenox@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Never claimed our current system is perfect.

Oh, you don't have to - we can see for ourselves that it's working perfectly. The rich are getting richer and the contemptible poors are getting poorer - as intended.

So which part isn't working perfectly?

I don’t know what would fix our greed and ego

Blah, blah, blah... do you apologists have anything other than your pathetic (and thoroughly debunked) "human nature" fig leaf to hide behind?

Also ask them why doesn’t most of them have any job.

Weren't you appealing to the "human nature" fallacy just a while ago?

Is it now "human nature" to have a job, too? What are the people who don't have jobs, Clyde? Defective, eh? Perhaps... subhuman, maybe?

Come out and say what you want to say, apologist.

because there is far more optimal wa, of making everyone’s life better by actually improving capitalism

"Improving" capitalism, eh? So the poor aren't poor enough for your tastes, eh?

[–] CheesyFox@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

lol, text me when you feel like actually discussing the topic, because now all you're trying to appeal to is emotions, not actual arguments. What you're trying to do is called a demagogy. I came here to discuss the topic with people that are here for exact same reason as me, not to masturbate on my/their own ego.

this time i'll pretend that you haven't proven to be immature demagogist only trying to insult your opponent. If this continues, you'll be ignored as someone who can't say anything significant though.

Oh, you don't have to - we can see for ourselves that it's working perfectly. The rich are getting richer and the contemptible poors are getting poorer - as intended.

Whole my point was about the fact that we can make the rich to disappear as a class, even though it will take some time.

Blah, blah, blah... do you apologists have anything other than your pathetic (and thoroughly debunked) "human nature" fig leaf to hide behind?

And do you? Because humans are flawed, that's fact. It's completely fine, but untill they won't, socialism won't be the way socium naturally goes, therefore it will be by definition weaker than what we have now, ergo, it just won't last. Untill you find a workaround for all such fundamental issues, your ideology continue to be a pure fantasy.

Weren't you appealing to the "human nature" fallacy just a while ago?

Is it now "human nature" to have a job, too? What are the people who don't have jobs, Clyde? Defective, eh? Perhaps... subhuman, maybe?

It is in human nature to be a part of society. If a grown man doesn't have a job he's basically an outsider. Maybe for you it will sound wild, but to have a job is to be a functional human. And given the modern day diversity and acessibility of education and jobs, i guess the guys have failed to fit in the society. It's unfortunate and we need to think how make so there will be less people falling into this deathtrap, but i don't see how socialism solves this problems. The homeless ones won't become functional if they recieve a house, there should be a difficult process of their rehabilitation starting with psychological consultations for the least. They're not subhuman, simply a poor lads in a bad situation. It's all just not as simple as anybody would like to thik of it.

Anyway, you really haven't thought of anythig better than to call your opponent a nazi? How unoriginal of you.

"Improving" capitalism, eh? So the poor aren't poor enough for your tastes, eh?

you can continue to ignore what i say, and disprove the arguments you have imagined out of thick air, but i doubt you'll convince anyone in your opinion that way, because it's even more unoriginal demagogical move than calling your opponent a nazi. It's calle strawman fallacy, and it just convinces everyone that your point is immature.

Wish you a good evening.

[–] areyouevenreal@lemm.ee 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yeah the guy you're arguing with isn't great. They should have more consideration for others ideas even if they are flawed.

That being said there are serious holes in your thinking. Mainly that capitalism doesn't actually align with human values. Humans are not purely self-interested and rational like some economic models are based upon. Human greed is part of what makes the rich behave so badly. You're arguing that socialism doesn't fit as well with human nature when in reality capitalism doesn't fit at all either. Systems that rely on infinite growth don't even fit with the laws of physical reality.

The true answer is to build a system that aligns with both physical reality and human nature, such a system would likely be socialist in nature, though maybe not. It is hard to say. Either way it should be an engineering problem, not something to get tribal over. You could also try to change humans to fit a given system, but this hasn't worked in the past. US and China try this all the time, bend people to fit their systems and it just doesn't work.

[–] CheesyFox@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

Finally, a someone with somewhat actually thought through opinion, not any ideological maximalist.

My main take is that capitalism is a shitty, yet reliable system that actually works through ages. I think that pure socialism is still too revolutionary.

What you said in your second paragraph is actually how I think about it. An engineering task. And in general, your opinion is something I can agree with.

P.S. I think, when social networks like lemmy will take over the corporative ones, we could discuss about socialistic revolution. All this fediverse thing kinda shows to people that you can be both non-profit and successful at the same time. Until then, we have what we have.

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