this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2024
375 points (93.1% liked)
Technology
59402 readers
4015 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I don't oppose the idea of battery station, but who owns the battery then? When I bought the car, am I leasing the battery? How about used car?
The company (NIO) owns them and you are leasing the batteries. The car is cheaper this way, as you don’t buy the battery up front, but pay a monthly fee (~200+ in Germany).
You have a fixed number of swaps per month, above that you have to pay extra.
Source: colleague uses a car like this and explained the details.
I hope it’s not 200€ but it’s way higher than what I pay for the gas.
What if they EOL the battery and stops the leasing program? Now the perfectly fine car is non functional because it's missing a battery. If I replace it, I'm just contributing more waste, not in materal but energy. Is that the "green" future we all after?
I'd assume you could still charge them the regular way. You'd just no longer get a fresh one, but that just puts you on par with the other EVs
The ownership is still questionable. Even if that's the case, you're stuck with the battery you last swapped in, which you don't know the wear level or how long it will last.
It's been a while since I've watched it myself, but remember them going into the ownership structure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
There's basically no way for them to not make it a subscription model.
So I can give an example. Here in Taiwan, Gogoro has put up a lot of battery swap stations for their electric scooters. When you buy the scooter, it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own. Or, you can buy a monthly subscription on top of it that gives you access to those battery stations, where you can ride up to one and swap a pair of freshly charged batteries into your scooter. Subscription price is tiered by Ah per month, if you go over the limit you pay extra per Ah.
In this case, yes I think Gogoro is in charge of maintaining/replacing old batteries. Subscription is separate from the scooter cost, so buying used should not affect your ability to subscribe to the plan.
I love that system
so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription? That looks promising.
However, this works for scooters is because the battery pack is small enough for hand carry and install. It won't be on typical 4-wheel vehicles as those are about a thousand pound. Even if we can modular and miniaturize it like how Gogoro does, where to install it is a big problem. Obviously we can't install it in the front compartment as that will be a fire hazard when crash.
No, you don't get additional batteries. Once you start using the swapping service, the battery that came with your scooter goes into circulation. I suppose when you decide to stop subscribing to the service, the batteries that you have currently will be yours to keep. (I don't own a Gogoro btw)
Yeah, and I agree that this system works great with scooters but not for cars.
Shame. It will be nice if I get a set of batteries I know well when the scooter used less frequently and charging at home makes more sense. Rather gambling on what's the quality/wear level of the next set will be.
Guess that's how they introduce new batteries into the system, and cost them lesser. As long as there are new scooter owners and using the service, there will always be new batteries entering the circulation. All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.
You shouldn't need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it's priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).
That's the idea!
I mean when I use the scooter less frequently (maybe I got a bigger car) or live somewhere else doesn't have the station, thus canceling the subscription. On that, I guess I will be stuck on the last battery set I swapped in.
I guess it would either work like a subscription fee or a one time fee per swap
Subscription for my car? Don't we have too much subscriptions already?
And neither solve the ownship problem, and a tons of other problems.
Subscription for fuel.
Gas is more like pas-as-you-go. Battery no so sure. And they are different by nature: gas can't be reused, batteries can.
The model only works if users are forced to subscribe to a battery swapping service for the full life of the vehicle (or there is a large upfront fee to join with a used vehicle). Otherwise it would be too easy for a consumer with a worn out battery to do a one-time swap and get a like-new battery as a cheap alternative to very costly battery repairs. The dumped battery is likely to have very poor range and the battery swap company will need to dispose of it.
You pay a monthly fee (lease) that contains a certain number of swaps per month, above which you pay extra. The car is also cheaper this way, as you are not paying the full price of the the battery up front
That's like asking who owns a propane tanks for your grill. You own it while you have it.
When you get a new batter, you own the new one, and relinquish ownership of the previous one, paying for the electricity that's on the new battery. AS LONG AS the battery that you're relinquishing is substantially identical to the new battery.
That "substantially identical" is up for heavy debate.
In my head the batteries would work somewhat like the electric scooters you can rent around big cities. There would be battery companies that pay stations to stock their batteries. Then EV owners pay for the juice they used, plus a little extra for the wear, plus a little extra to make it worth it for the battery companies when they swap to a new battery. So you're essentially renting the batteries.
Renault tried leasing the batteries in EV in an effort to lower the initial cost of the car while increasing their tail for future owners. They abandoned it only a few years in as it was a disaster for their used market that got worse the older the car got as nobody wanted the ongoing cost. Only the initial owner saved money, and only if they managed to use PCP finance with a balloon set before Renault realised that the battery leased cars would be worth significantly less.
Renault also did not like that with older cars they would be liable for the battery replacement far sooner than they planned as they (initially) had a higher percentage unusable before they had to do a free replacement vs. a normal battery warranty, made worse as a leased battery has a warranty as long as you are paying the lease.
Renault could repossess the car if you stopped paying the battery lease and refused to buy it out. Its like any car finance that puts a lien or similar on the car, you do not own it till its gone.
Yeah, when I wanted to buy an electric car I look at the used market for the Renault Zoe but I quickly gave up.
The idea of paying a monthly subscription on a used car quickly turned me off and buying the leased battery back from Renault was prohibitively expensive.
That just proofs my point in https://lemmy.ml/comment/11726077
Once they get you on the hook, they can only provide the subscription option, much like how software (Adobe, I'm looking at you) does today. Or have the one-time purchase option be super expensive to lure customers into the subscription model.
Simply because continous revenue is batter then a one-time purchase.
I would guess a swappable battery would be separated from the vehicle, similar to a gas bottle for a grill.
The battery would be rented for a small deposit and on swapping you only pay the energy + service fee.
I guess you could also buy one to own, but then could not swap that.
That's how it would make sense, at least.
It's not just that, its what happens if you get a battery from a guy named roger who said he knows what he's doing and fucked with it?
Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.
Government regulation and standardization is the answer.
You know, like fossil fuels also are. For example fuelpumps have to be legally calibrated so that they measure accurately, and there are a myriad of quality standards and ratings regarding what 98 octane or 95 octane or diesel fuel or whatever can contain.
There are already plenty of shady car mechanics named roger who can swindle you out there...
Not just about "who owns it?" but also how does it work with insurance if something goes terribly wrong and who will bear the responsibility?