this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2024
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[–] IHeartBadCode@fedia.io 198 points 2 weeks ago (120 children)

I just don't get how people are looking at Harris' stance as being pro-genocide. Biden is the President and historically, foreign policy during the tenure of the President by the Vice President doesn't veer too far off from the President. That said, Harris has absolutely called for investigation into the suffering of civilians in the conflict.

Congress sets the budgetary amount of aid to direct to Israel and the President distributes the money via their diplomatic channels. There are very few options for the President to just suspend funding, which Biden has done twice for weapons under the rules established within 10 USC § 362 (a)(1)

Of the amounts made available to the Department of Defense, none may be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for a unit of a foreign security force if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that the unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.

But outside that, there's very little the President can do once Congress approves funding and that funding has been signed into law. This is why an independent channel investigation is required and is exactly what Harris has called for. This would allow the the US Government to establish their own inquiry into the human abuses. This would give the required evidence to cancel funding under Title XII authority. But none of that can happen overnight. It's not an easy path to override the will of Congress.

On the opposite side, Trump has indicated that he will absolutely turn a blind eye to the whole thing and allow Israel to determine solely the "best" course of action for their current conflict. Trump has literally stated in his rallies:

From the start, Harris has worked to tie Israel's hand behind its back, demanding an immediate cease-fire, always demanding cease-fire

Trump would not see a cease-fire as a required condition for the on-going conflict.

Harris and Democrats historically have called for a two-state solution. Trump's plan which has been broadly adopted by the Republican party in general would:

  • Give Palestinians only about 15% of their original territory
  • Jerusalem would become Israel's undivided capitol, meaning all claims by the Palestinians to the eastern half of the city would be tossed out.
  • Allow Palestinians to "achieve an independent state" via a means that is not clearly defined in the plan but indicated that Israel would have a final say in that process.
  • "No Palestinians or Israelis will be uprooted from their homes" indicating that the territory that Israel has already colonized from their current conflict would become Israel's.
  • Would put Israel and Jordan on equal footing for the administration of al-Haram al-Sharif, which will absolutely ignite a conflict.
  • Any territory allocated to Palestinians would have to undergo a four year "wait" period, but there's no protections from Israel obtaining that territory if done so during conflict. So Israel could provoke someone to fight them and that would give them justification to take the land during this "four year wait period".

Trump has all but given up completely on a two-state solution. Which means, he's for a one state solution. And people are fooling themselves if they believe that Trump would seek a "peaceful" one state solution. He has told Netanyahu directly, "Just get it done quickly". Now we can play a game as what manner is used to "get it done quickly" means, but only idiots are the one's thinking that doesn't give a tacit nod to ethic cleansing.

I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don't think they are thinking at all. You have one solution that is long, stupid, and required because we are a nation of laws. And you have the other solution that is "fuck it, firebomb them all and call it done". It is difficult to imagine that there are truly people this blind and ignorant to this reality. But yet, here we are.

The notion that we might get a 3rd party into office like twenty years from now if we start today, helps nobody if the people we're trying to help are all eradicated over the next four years. Going down this "third road" only ensures an outcome where we are fifteen years too late to help.

[–] BrioxorMorbide@lemm.ee 32 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all.

They live in cloud cuckoo land where Biden/Harris can just tell Netanyahu "Fuck off and shove a grenade up your arse, you genocidal maniac" and that would actually work.

[–] johker216@lemmy.world 26 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

They believe in Schrodinger's Jew: that Jews simultaneously control US politics and that US Presidents control Israel.

[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 11 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

Most of Israel's weapons come from the US. It's very well possible for the US congress/government to say "no more weapons if you use them for agression".

[–] phdepressed@sh.itjust.works 14 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Biden tried just slowing weapon shipments earlier on and Rs and some Ds rammed a bill through saying nope, no slowdowns on these shipments allowed.

[–] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Biden tried just slowing weapon shipments earlier on and Rs and some Ds rammed a bill through saying nope, no slowdowns on these shipments allowed.

When you have a racist right-wing party, and a right-wing party that supports killing innocents, I am not as enthused to vote as I would be if there were a clear choice between them.

[–] aStonedSanta@lemm.ee 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)
[–] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone -3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Wow, stoned people really do say ridiculous things.

[–] aStonedSanta@lemm.ee 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You said there is no clear choice between. A party that supports killing innocents and racism. And a party that supports killing innocents. It’s not hard math.

[–] RatzChatsubo@lemm.ee 1 points 2 weeks ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there more dead on the Gaza side? What's the math of that?

[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I mean, if both are killing innocents, but one is killing innocents on top of being racist, it's pretty obvious that the racist one is worse. A kindergartener could check that math.

[–] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

It's interesting how you have to resort to being dismissive when I say that I don't like seeing innocents killed.

You say you're voting for 'harm reduction'. But, factually, supporting Israel is increasing harm, not reducing it. You might be upset with me because you're rationalising painful reality.

I have no choice, due to autism, but to accept reality for what it is. And it's not nice, because living in a world where it is politically expedient to support killing innocent people sucks. I want nothing to do with it, and I would swap with someone in Palestine so that I could die, instead.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

They are both shit. Don't support or vote criminals.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

That’s what this entire post is about. You’re accomplishing jack shit by not voting.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Wrong, supporting criminals with blood on their hands is evil and make things worst. If the red and blue party start to lose votes they have to go in damage mode and actually change their policies to get their votes back. As long as people support and vote for them they don't really have to change anything, they cycle in power.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

This is WHAT THE POST IS ABOUT. Putting Trump in office to try to influence the Dems is incredibly stupid and we’ve been responding to this tripe ALL YEAR already. Trump will be worse on Palestine, Ukraine, actively seek to harm LGBT people as well as Central/Southern American immigrants, and be much worse on tons of issues like labor laws, financial regulations, the environment, on and on. So, no. What you’re proposing is a naive and clueless idea.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The only naive and clueless idea is supporting your government while its fueling a genocide where kids are being murdered daily

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Can you read, at all? What you’re saying is the precise stupid shit that this post is about and I’ve already pointed out that almost always, people sharing that viewpoint simply say something stupid and insulting about genocide and miss the entire point. So good job. I’m not going to bother to repeat it, but I’ll point out that claiming people are “supporting their government” by voting is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard lately.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

By voting a party you are supporting them. By advocating others to vote for it you are supporting them even more. If a party is already in charge as the government and you vote for them or encourage others to do so you are supporting the government.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I really don’t get why some people have a hard time understanding how this all works. For an office like President, you don’t get your favorite choice. Period. You have to vote for the candidate who can actually win and best reflects your views and values. Jesus Christ. I can’t possibly be fucked to explain this again.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 week ago

For an office like President, you don’t get your favorite choice. Period.

Don't spread propaganda. You can vote for anyone you want who is in the ballots.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It’s more like a racist right-wing party that supports killing innocents, and a right-wing party that supports killing innocents.

[–] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 weeks ago

You're right, I just thought "racist" implied "supports killing", as I am aware of the history and practice of racism.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 weeks ago

The Joe Biden administration also stated that Israel would receive "whatever it needs". Which is pretty much what has happened so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

[–] jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

wow you just ignore that biden wanted to give them the weapons anyways. you see its a little thing called providing cover. Biden didn't fight against it because he wanted to give isreal the weapons.

[–] phdepressed@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

That bill went through with a veto-proof majority of all Rs and enough Dems.

Biden is a zionist, however, he's also a politician who understands that the genocide was not and is not super favorable domestically. It's also not a good look for the ceasefire negotiations to be as unsuccessful as they've been. If the opposition wasnt the orange turd this election could have easily gone R just like Reagan v Carter with Iranian hostage crisis.

[–] jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago

oh wow! a veto proof majority! its too bad biden controls the military and can just know you. not ship them. invoke leahy. etc.

biden has no one to blame but himself for gaza. go read the article of the israel/gaza timelines. there was no need for whats happening to happen. biden just had to... not ship weapons. he had all the legal cover he could have possibly wanted if his goal was to end the genocide.

It’s also not a good look for the ceasefire negotiations to be as unsuccessful as they’ve been

lol. they have not even happened. bibi has 0 interest in a ceasefire. the biden admin knows this. if they don't then we definitely need to get rid of them all.

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