this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2024
124 points (99.2% liked)

politics

19098 readers
4344 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

So I have a personal example, and I'll keep it brief because there's a lot of really detailed nuance here.

I was holding a meeting about 2 years ago, and someone recommended a follow up sub-committee meeting. I told them I'd pull together a small group of people to hold a "pow wow". An Asian-American girl in the meeting who's your prototypical hyper-aware leftist reached out to me after the meeting. She handled it 100% professionally and exactly the way she should have, and she politely said, "I didn't want to say something during the meeting because I know you didn't mean anything by it, but I do cringe a bit when you call your meetings a 'pow wow.' I just thought you should be aware." I thanked her for pointing it out, apologized that it was something I'd always said almost unconsciously, and told her I'd try to do better in the future.

I've thought about that interaction for years. There's something in my lizard brain that feels almost offended that she'd call me out for something like that. I consider myself to be a keenly aware left-leaning person, and I'm quite sensitive to racial or sexuality-based jokes. I run in some conservative circles, so these kinds of jokes are common. Though this particular confrontation shouldn't bother me, for some reason deep down it does. My irrational, emotional brain wants to say, "That's not fair! You know I didn't mean anything by it! I'm not racist!", and my rational brain just says, "No big deal, be better in the future."

I can't explain why it's so deeply unsettling to be called out for doing something racist when I clearly didn't mean it that way. But it does help me understand a right-leaning person who's used to building social capital by telling racially-charged jokes that were probably very funny 10-15 years ago. Suddenly they're not just living in a culture that doesn't find those things funny, they're surrounded by people who readily call them "racist" for repeating jokes they've probably heard dozens of times from other people. I do not think those kinds of people are racist, I just think they grew up surrounded by subconsciously-racialized tropes, and they're simply reflecting those tropes back out into the world. And I now know how deeply painful it can be to be called a racist when you 100% didn't intend it that way. I'm sure there's a spectrum of intent and personal reflection, and some people fall closer to the "racist" end of the spectrum, plus some people think more or less about how they're perceived by other people, but I understand their pain now. I cringe when the left so readily throws out these labels, not because they're not true on some level, but because they're "othering" to people who might be sandwiched between cultural sub-groups, and those kinds of attacks aren't going to make those people more reflective or open to your arguments.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Yes, that feeling about having said Pow Wow, and being called out on it in the most gentle and polite manner, must he a very small version of the inciting incident many MAGA types probably went through, or feel they went through.

Abd where you were self aware enough to reel in that indignant feeling of being corrected, they can't. They didn't have that, for whatever reason.

It may have been knee jerk, it may have been poor cultural timing, or part of a group looking to exclude them for any reason, it may have been part of their divorce, or maybe they just weren't politically aware enough to deal and cope with being called out. Or maybe they were just a bit slow. But whatever it is, they're stuck there and so are gonna try to alter society to what they said, rather than admit they were out of line, or out of date with current standards of propriety.

Interestingly enough Thomas Piketty the Marxist theorist who wrote Capital in the Twenty First century, predicted that as the wealth gap got larger society would return to Victorian era ideas around social classes, the idea of not marrying below your station, and of not fraternizing with commoners or the poor, or bwong uncouth like them.

I don't know if this might be part of that, but it seems you understand some of the emotional aspects of gow someone slips into the MAGA mindset. The sense of betrayal they must feel.

[–] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

100%. It's fucking weird to empathize with people I've hated for so long, even if only microscopically. I still don't know how to reach them, but I feel it.

[–] sensiblepuffin@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I appreciate the anecdote, because I think it's happened to all of us. I had a similar interaction with someone who balked at my usage of the word "homeless" (I live in a city, so it's come up once or twice), insisting that I should instead call them "unhoused".

I think the important point in your anecdote is saying "it's unsettling and angering to be called out for doing/saying something racist when you in fact are not racist". My stance on this issue is that everyone's a little bit *-ist. Instead of concluding "people can do and say racist things while not being racist", I think a more helpful conclusion would be "people do and say racist shit all the time without meaning it because we have a lot of racism built into our brains".

I agree with you on the othering, however. I dislike when people try and put racists, sexists, etc. in a timeout corner, mostly because it seems to be with the aim of declaring themselves A Good Person rather than actually affecting any social change. I think it's more helpful to say "hey, look, we're all born with a lot of baggage from our environments and parents, and we don't get to choose how our brains are molded".

[–] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

Yeah I completely agree. Implicit bias is a universal human trait, and I've consciously tried to be aware of the times it rears its ugly head. That's why I was so caught off guard, because I'm usually on the lookout for stuff like that. My best friend is a director at a media company, and he's spent nearly 2 years carefully documenting his interactions with a black, female subordinate of his. She's generally a really bad employee, a poor worker, antagonistic to colleagues, and all around a sour human being, but he can't discipline her the way he disciplines his other employees because she and her sister (who works under another director) readily claim that they're being discriminated against, no matter how innocuous the interaction or how mundane the offense. They've had to fire white, cis male employees with better track records because they're afraid that if they fire her she'll take them to court. He's a lifelong Republican who registered as a Democrat after 2016 and voted straight-ticket Dem this election, but he regularly confides in me that he's deeply frustrated with the way he has to interact with these sisters. He has to constantly look over his shoulder, he has to treat her with kit gloves, and he has to document every word he speaks to her so there's a detailed record of their conversations. I'm not saying she's not actively discriminated against in her daily life because I'm sure she 100% is, but I'm also not saying she's not taking advantage of this cultural moment to re-construct the power dynamic with the white male supervisor below her, no matter the needs of the business. This is why blue collar Trump supporters so routinely crow about people "playing the race card", because some people actually do.

We're not in a healthy place as a society, and extremists/activists on both sides are really bad at self-reflection.

[–] sensiblepuffin@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

That's anecdotal, but it does display the frustrations that people have with what they perceive as injust wokeness.

I think it's important to mention that shitty people are everywhere and in all shapes and colors; these two may just stand out because he does feel like he has to walk on eggshells around them.

What I will say is that I think it's a mistake to assume that people who are minorities or other discriminated classes are also progressive by nature. In a perfect world, your race and gender would have nothing to do with what political ideology you subscribe to, but we live in a far from perfect world.

[–] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm not sure where I made that assumption?

[–] sensiblepuffin@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

I didn't say you did, but I can see how you got there.