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Anarchy sounds good to me then someone asks "Who'd fix the sewers?"
edit: This is lyrics from The Dead Kennedy’s “Where Do You Draw the Line?”
My experience organizing non-profit events have shown that most people actually have no problem doing dirty jobs for no material compensation. If the following things are true:
I understand that this seems foreign to a lot of people, because this is not how work is generally motivated in capitalist society. You are used to your job being rather unimportant, with little autonomy, little trust, not much recognition from society and some people definitely profiting more than others. Your primary motivator is the threat of violence (via homelessness, starvation etc.), so it's hard to imagine what would happen if that was removed.
That to me is the core idea of Anarchism, to base your organization on volontary cooperation rather than coercion.
An interesting side-note is that the people who do the dirty jobs in these circumstances often take great pride in it, forming an identify around doing what others are not willing to and calling attention to it as a way to get more recognition.
non-profit events and mucking a sewer are very different.
I assumed it was just a very dirty, tough job requiring some specialized equipment and skills. Are you saying it's somehow fundamentally different from other human activities?
Yes I believe organizing and doing are very different and sewer work falls firmly into an area of work that most wouldn't do without substantial gain for that work. Humans are not inherently altruistic on that level
Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, when I said "organizing" I meant everything required to run an event (with thousands attending). From planning and programming to picking trash and cleaning toilets.
Having cleaned many toilets it is nowhere nearly as unpleasant as the life risking work that can take place in a sewer system.
Anarchist response would be "people who want functioning sewers, which should be everybody."
Yeah it's a dirty job. So is wiping your ass. Does someone need to threaten you to wipe your ass? Take a shower? When your toilet breaks at home do you shrug and just shit on the bathroom floor?
No, you fix the toilet. Same with the sewers.
Ok and who does that end up being?
Whoever steps up first. For a sewer, probably several people. What's your point?
Most aren’t capable ir willing to do this work without substantial compensation above and beyond what most jobs provide.
Given that an anarchist society wouldn't have capitalists, I Imagine that wages, if they still existed, would be substantially different than they are today.
I would think the desire for flush toilets would be enough, but if you think people need extrinsic motivation there is room for that.
I have mucked a sewer line before. I don’t think anyone who hasn’t actually handled sewage should really take a second to ask if they would step up to do this and are they even capable of doing so (I cannot at 50 do this anymore).
This is where anti-capitalist ideologies have a shortcoming that needs to be considered as we have to move away from capitalism.
I can't deny there are dirty jobs that nobody would do on a lark or as a hobby or even a calling.
A busted sewer is a community emergency. You can ask the infirm, the pregnant, the elderly "what are you willing to do to support our efforts to fix the sewer?" And the answer might be cook some large meals, care for the children, or take someone's regular job for a week
Yes, everyone will be side eyeing young, strong, men (and maybe women) to take the lead on fixing the sewer. There might be promises to make it up to them later. A fifty year old with carpentry experience might offer to expand a house install new cabinets if they will help with the sewer. I do think there are things that others can do to support a major effort like that.
I think you may underestimate the impact of sewage backing up into your home :D
You are right though. Tragedy of the commons is a catch22. When everything is everyone's problem, nothing is anyone's problem. This occurs in EVERY political system though, and they still function.
Yes, capitalist republics compensate for this by paying others more for these jobs. Authoritarian states push people into these jobs. I’m not sure how this gets addressed in an anarchistic society in practical terms.
I'm of the opinion that an anarchist society is probably the wrong way, but incorporating anarchist ideals into things, such as "no really you actually are responsible for everyTHING (not everyone) around you" and "you are the only person who is capable of being responsible for your own choices, opinions and decisions." and "consider the consequences of your actions before doing what you are told" and "a just hierarchy is one you are free to join and leave as required, and without coersion", we can actually improve even our current system.
honestly people like to talk about about moneyless societies but I'd imagine it would still be around for a while. I imagine a system where people chip into a fund to provide a bounty of sorts for jobs that require extreme skill or a strong stomach.
Someone doesn't understand what anarchism is. Opinion discarded. Please read a book and return.
This is the opportunity to share resources and give them a direction to head, and you missed it.
Probably the people who own the sewers.
Let me rephrase the question, who will fix the potholes?
It’s a Dead Kennedy’s song and do people own the sewers in anarchist societies?
Make the libertarians do it! /s
Idk, ive fixed a pothole or two that bothered me near home, but yeah, I'm not doing a whole city lol
I think though that once people realize the onus is on them to fix things, people will start to fix things. Provided of course, that they have the means and ability to do so.
And then, there are still companies which can be hired to do these things, provided someone is willing to pay them
Thats something I find fascinating. People hear anarchy and assume the end of commerce because it would inherently mean an end to capitalism, presuming we arent talking about some weird ancap philosophy that I can't make sense.
Commerce has happened for forever, and changing forms of government will not change that.
Thats not the part I find fascinating though, its that people discussing anarchy tend to cede this argument without a fight.
If you do so, an implied argument of anarchy gets lost: "there is no such thing as unskilled labor."
This isnt generally considered a point for anarchy, but it is. In an anarchist system, you have the agency to decide your role in your community. This means you WILL specialize, as we all do as humans; even the generalists of us aren't generalists at everything. I for one would make a shitty translator, as i only speak English.
There would need to be some means of getting labor done by someone who knew how to do it, this ought to feel natural to most of us anyway... I mean I assume you guys try to help your friends at stuff you are good at that they aren't. I similarly assume you're generally compensated for this behavior, even if it isnt with currency as we generally consider it.