this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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I think the Israeli government is authoritarian, and their scorched earth tactics against Palestinians are war crimes, but you're not doing the cause any favors by invoking the Nazis. Criticize their actual behavior.
They turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
As Jews, they should absolutely know better.
The problem is their behavior and rhetoric towards Palestine resembles a sentiment shared by the OG Nazis
The problem is when you mention Nazis to Jews, the first things they'll think of are Zyklon B, Babi Yar, the piles of children's shoes at Auschwitz, Mengele, that sort of thing.
And while what's going on in Israel is terrible, it's not Mengele terrible, Babi Yar terrible, or Treblinka terrible. So they write you off as just another antisemite, rather than listening to your point.
And yet that was only the very end. The stuff that came before that might as well be a mirror to the way Israel is treating the Palestinians.
No, not really. Nazi Germany lasted from 1933-1945.
From 1933 to 1939, things were mostly non-lethal: boycotting and vandalizing shops, banning Jews from public service or practicing law, harassing Jews, etc. The basic idea was to get Jews to emigrate out of Germany.
The first open ghettos were established in 1939, while the massacres really started in 1941.
If you're going to compare Gaza to part of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to the closed ghettos that were established in 1940, like the Warsaw ghetto. The period between the establishment of the closed ghettos and the beginning of the mass killings was way, way shorter than the mass killings. Of the 12 year span of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to a period that lasted for about a year or so, 7 years in.
Nazi Germany really isn't a great historical comparison to Israel. Honestly, a better comparison is to the US's treatment of Native Americans, though it's still not a perfect analogy. The dream of Israel's far right isn't to murder every last Palestinian, it's manifest destiny; an Israel stretching from the river to the sea even if there's a few small reservations on it.
Netanyahu and his cohorts have explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last Palestinian. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
I read this, and from what I can tell, he explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last member of Hamas, and a different unrelated person wrote an essay about how they need to kill all Palestinians?
They also have said anyone remaining in Gaza is Hamas so...
Well, thats only a relevant distinction if they meaningfully differentiate between Hamas and Palestinian. Considering they've talked about using nukes, that they think sacrificing an entire hospital full of innocents to maybe kill a few Hamas, and that we DAMN WELL KNOW how racism means generalizing anyone of a group to be the worst kind of that group, and the fact that the totally un-Hamas west bank is getting ethnically cleansed too, it's incredibly naive to think they'll leave any reasonable amount of palestinians alive.
Jesus Christ what a fuckng psycho
You need to look at what's happening in West Bank.
When the Israelis impose a system of racial domination on Palestinians that is objectively worse than Apartheid, I'd say you needn't bother handwringing about Israelis getting their feelings hurt. Fascists is always an alternative though - they're politicians have used it themselves.
Netanyahu himself has made racist jokes favouring white Jews over the north african immigrants, so while 'white supremacist' also works at that point, you're back to just saying 'Nazi'.
Why is it worse rhan apartheid?
Because Jews don't need Palestinians like White South Africans needed Black people for low wage jobs. So they can genocide them without a thought.
No I meant what evidence do you have that what they are actually doing is worse than apartheid?
Chiefly Nelson Mandela's own words on the matter and Noam Chomsky's. Other South Africans. The two-tier colonial system in place and TCM's recent testimony on what he saw in the occupied territories was enlightening too.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
TCM's recent testimony on what he saw in the occupied territories
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
A craven terrorist attack caused a military response that has claimed 11,000 lives to date, with a substantial proportion of those lives being women and children. This is a horrible thing. Hamas and the Israeli government can both go fuck themselves for the misery they have caused.
That said, AFAIK nobody is sending Israeli troops in to round up Palestinians and systematically incinerate them until all Palestinians are dead.
6,000,000 Jews suffered that fate.
The bombing of Dresden took 25,000 German lives. Nobody called that an attempted genocide.
Perspective is important.
In a context where we have the lies about the hospitals having tunnels under them, that 40 non-existent babies were beheaded and where some key facts about Oct 7 have somewhat unravelled, how far would you even bother policing the words of people wishing for a liberated Palestinian?
The Israelis and their supporters are also notorious liars and frequently try to claim that Muslims or brown people were responsible for the Holocaust in Europe.
They've bombed civilians before and the intelligence they send tend to be garbage according to EU after they looked through the reams of documents the Israelis sent them. As an occupier, Israel behaves like a country at war all the time, they lie, kill and cheat perpetually.
I have never heard of Israelis by trying to blame the Holocaust on Arabs. On the other hand. .
https://themedialine.org/top-stories/holocaust-denial-still-common-in-the-arab-world-but-views-are-changing/
I’ll verify that my Arabic family are wildly antisemitic. They don’t denigrate Jewish individuals, mock their appearance, call them filth or anything in that vein. But they’re not just anti-Zionists either. They believe Jews control the world through a shadow network of conspirators. And when you believe that, it fits right in that they must have manufactured a Holocaust to win sympathy.
I think it all stems from anti-Zionism, though. They see a tiny country holding out against the entire Arab world, with the backing of powerful westerners, and their explanation is that the Israelis must have America and the EU dancing on puppet strings. It’s like when a foe pulls off a stunning victory and their enemies say they must have cut a deal with the devil because how else do you explain it. I don’t believe any of that, though I do find the American military support for Israel totally sus and wrong.
Jews were in high positions in the Arab world and iirc lived well. Much of the blame for the rise in anti-semitism is almost purely down to Zionism. Jews came to be seen as colonial collaboraters with the great powers against that region. In Algeria they literally were - the French were able to create a two-tier colonial society by giving Jewish Algerians who were native to Algeria citizenship and denying Muslims the same by claiming cultural incompatibility. Hence, Jews became a colonial force in that country.
In Iraq, Zionists terrorised the Arab (Iraqi!) Jewish community there by bombing Synagogues and cultural centers and collaborated with Iraqi nationalists to force Iraqi Jews into leaving for Israel.
So there are different experiences here, but almost all is down to colonialism and zionism.
Yep great insights. Thank you for adding.
Lol when were these Jews in Iraq bombed and who exactly are the zionists who did the bombing?
Imagine you walked into the camps and saw the smattering of walking skeletons that were left from the multiple thousands of people who had preceded them into the gas chambers or ovens.
I think it's hard to really imagine what level of trauma that would cause, and how shocking it would be to see those images.
I think that is the foundation of a powerful bond between the West and Israel, and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
I find it extremely troubling that Netanyahu and his cronies have said that the only solution to the issues they are having is to exterminate all Palestinians (assuming that quote is accurate) and I do think that their actions are horrifying and deserve criticism, but that's the government. I have no issue with the people of Israel. I believe that in part these actions are Bibi covering his own ass for not stopping nor even anticipating a massive attack from a known enemy. I understand his desire to root out Hamas, but there has to be a way to do so with more accuracy and less civilian misery and death.
He has said Hitler didn't intend to destroy Jews until a Muslim told him to.
His son posts Nazi memes on Facebook (featuring Greenwald).
He is also suspiciously happy that his son married a white Scandinavian woman.
He made racist jokes/comments about north african jews in their military and that white jewish officers must lead them.
The comparisons to the Nazis are actually inescapable. I struggle to think of a centrally orchestrated and mechanized system of apartheid/oppression and now genocide that's more similar.
Godwin's Law was repealed in 2016.
"Godwin's Law" only said that the comparison to Nazis becomes inescapable the longer a conversation goes (not the common interpretation "whoever says Nazi first loses"). If I remember right he actually went back later and said it's perfectly fine to draw the Nazi analogy to fascist states.
The Israelis have set up a systematic means of rounding up and murdering people until their entire race is removed from existence?
I hadn't heard.
...you mean at the military checkpoints where Palestinians routinely disappear? How about the fact that Israel conducts human medical experiments on prisoners. Or the systematic rape of Palestinian women. How about the systematic attacks on Palestinian infrastructure that leaves 95% of Gaza without access to clean water. And that was before this current mess.
Grow the fuck up and open your eyes. Israelis are straight up evil.
The Israeli government is straight up evil, maybe.
The Israeli people have been targets of precise statements from multiple neighbors over the years telling them they would be exterminated as soon as the opportunity arose.
Put yourself in that position and tell me you wouldn't support a right wing militant government that ran on a platform of hard borders and strong military.
How many wars of aggression have been waged against Israel since its founding? How many terrorist attacks? If the nations surrounding them put down their weapons and accepted them, there would be peace in the region. If the Israelis put down their weapons they would be murdered en masse.
How would you like a populace that came within a hair's breadth of systematic extermination to react when they move to an area and are immediately painted as liars by neighbors who are Holocaust deniers and express the desire to finish the job?
Also if your argument is strong enough there's no need to add that last part. It makes you seem weak and devalues any merit in your words, of which there is plenty. Nobody wants to see people getting hurt, but to fail to differentiate between the Israeli government and the Israeli people, and to ignore the situation they are in and the precursor to the establishment of the state of Israel, is a mistake.
They chose for religious reasons to slowly invade and genocide a people in an area that was extremely hostile to them.
Historically Jewish people have been given land in Spain and Italy to found their own nation. Both times they sold it and invaded Israel in history.
I have zero sympathy for them, because historically, they've been the invading aggressors to the region because they feel they have some sort of religious right to it, and since I'm anti-theist and believe religion is the root of all evil seeing both sides die in this conflict is kind of desirable to me.
Children get indoctrinated into Islam and Judaism and inherit this conflict and its derived suffering from their parents. As an anti-theist, you should be able to see them as victims, rather than see the conflict as something positive.
Am I a poor little victom instead of an oppressor because I didn't personally create patriarchy, white supremacy, ableism, heteronormativity? If I keep supporting those systems, at least when I'm an adult, I am an oppressor and fully responsible.
Depends. Are you 10 years old, or do you have children under your care?
I understand as a fellow atheist, but I would just say try to have some compassion for people as a whole, even if they believe in stupid sky daddys.
After what I went through at the hands of my ultra religious parents, at the hands of the Catholic church I went to, and finally at the hands of the conversion therapy religious camp I was imprisoned in, I can tell you right now I have absolutely zero capacity for any compassion for any believer what so ever.
If I could press a button and kill them all I'd do it in a heartbeat. No believer deserves even the tiniest iota of your sympathy or compassion. I promise you one atheist to another, they feel the same way about you.
I feel for your experiences but again want to stress that not all of them are unsaveable, many were just born into it and brainwashed throughout their lifetime and never actually given any alternative.
I used to be a very angry atheist as well, and I will definitely still debate theists and point out the idiocy in religion, but I also don't particularly blame them for being that way.
Obviously there are many examples of shit people who wield it to hurt others, as you've clearly experienced, but they're not all like that, and were not going to win any/many over by saying we want them all to die, even if I agree that the world would be better off if religion didn't exist.
A common one I see is the "how can you have morals without religion" which... Ugh but people literally often aren't ever given an opposing viewpoint in a reasonable and rational manner.
Anyway, hope you're better in life after getting away from that garbage.
It literally says it's good to kill atheists in their holy book, regardless of which abrahamic religion you choose. And while, yes, Christians, Muslims, and Jews can pick and choose what they follow, but in the case of Muslims, clearly you have to see the threat. If you don't recognize the potential, or hear how they demonize atheists, I really can't help you. You can allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security by some of them that pretend to be better, but I won't.
Right, I'm aware, but we should strive to be more moral then them, that includes not wishing for their death just because of their religion.
The Nazis forced Jews into ghettos. Gaza is a ghetto that Palestinians are forced to live in.
Zionists will not however, directly kill every Palestinian. They will indirectly try to kill every Palestinian by colonizing every last inch of land from the Palestinians. The ones that immigrate away will be too scattered to maintain a coherent ethnicity, and eventually their culture will be erased.
So, while practically speaking they're not as bad as Nazis, they are as effective as Nazis, if not more so.