You could have said the same for factories in the 18th century. But instead of the reactionary sentiment to just reject the new, we should be pushing for ways to have it work for everyone.
this post was submitted on 29 Aug 2023
134 points (100.0% liked)
Technology
37608 readers
234 users here now
A nice place to discuss rumors, happenings, innovations, and challenges in the technology sphere. We also welcome discussions on the intersections of technology and society. If it’s technological news or discussion of technology, it probably belongs here.
Remember the overriding ethos on Beehaw: Be(e) Nice. Each user you encounter here is a person, and should be treated with kindness (even if they’re wrong, or use a Linux distro you don’t like). Personal attacks will not be tolerated.
Subcommunities on Beehaw:
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I don't see how rejecting 18th century-style factories or exploitative neural networks is a bad thing. We should have the option of saying "no" to the ideas of capitalists looking for a quick buck. There was an insightful blog post that I can't find right now...
Lets not forget all the exploitation that happened in that period also. People, even children, working for endless hours for nearly no pay, losing limbs to machinery and simply getting discarded for it. Just as there is a history of technology, there is a history of it being used inequitably and even sociopathically, through greed that has no consideration for human well-being. It took a lot of fighting, often literally, to get to the point we have some dignity, and even that is being eroded.
I get your point, it's not the tech, it's the system, and while I lost all excitement for AI I don't think that genie can't be put back in the bottle. But if the whole system isn't changing, we should at least regulate the tech.
But AI will eliminate so many jobs that it will affect a lot of people, and strain the whole system even more. There isn't a "just become a programmer" solution to AI, because even intellectually-oriented jobs are now on the line for elimination. This won't create more jobs than it takes away.
Which shows why people are so fearful of this tech. Freeing people from manual labor to go to intellectual work was overall good, though in retrospect even then it came at a cost of passionate artisans. But now people might be "freed" from being artists to having to become sweatshop workers, who can't outperform machines so their only option is to undercut them. Who is being helped by this?
Yes, I know about the exploitation that happened during early industrialization, and it was horrible. But if people had just rejected and banned factories back then, we'd still be living in feudalism.
I know that I don't want to work a job that can be easily automated, but intentionally isn't just so I can "have a purpose".
What will happen if AI were to automate all jobs? In the most extreme case, where literally everyone lost their job, then nobody would be able to buy stuff, but also, no company would be able to sell products and make profit. Then, either capitalism would collapse - or more likely, it will adapt by implementing some mechanism such as UBI. Of course, the real effect of AI will not be quite that extreme, but it may well destabilize things.
That said, if you want to change the system, it's exactly in periods of instability that can be done. So I'm not going to try to stop progress and cling to the status quo out of fear what those changes might be - and instead join a movement that tries to shape them.
we should at least regulate the tech.
Maybe. But generally on Lemmy I see sooo many articles about "Oh, no, AI bad". But no good suggestions on what exactly regulations should we want.
Movements that shape changes can also happen by resisting or by popular pressure. There is no lack of well-reasoned articles about the issues with AI and how they should be addressed, or even how they should have been addressed before AI engineers charged ahead not even asking for forgiveness after also not asking for permission. The thing is that AI proponents and the companies embracing them don't care to listen, and governments are infamously slow to act.
For all that is said of "progress", a word with a misleading connotation, once again this technology puts wealthy people, who can build data centers for it, at an advantage compared to regular people who at best can only use lesser versions of it, if even that, they might instead just receive the end result of whatever the technology owners want to offer. Like the article itself mentions, it has immense potential for advertising, scams and political propaganda. I haven't seen AI proponents offering meaningful rebuttals to that.
At this point I'm bracing for the dystopian horrors that will come before it all comes to a head, and who knows how it might turn out this time around.
Like the article itself mentions, it has immense potential for advertising, scams and political propaganda. I haven’t seen AI proponents offering meaningful rebuttals to that.
You won't get a direct rebuttal because, obviously, an AI can be used to write ads, scams and political propaganda.
But every day millions of people are cut by knives. It hurts. A lot. Sometimes the injuries are fatal. Does that mean knives are evil and ruining the world? I'd argue not. I love my kitchen knives and couldn't imagine doing without them.
I'd also argue LLMs can be used fact check and uncover scams/political propaganda/etc and can lower the cost of content production to the point where you don't need awful advertisements to cover the production costs.
This knife argument is overused as an excuse to take no precautions about anything whatsoever. The tech industry could stand to be more responsible about what it makes rather than shrugging it off until aging politicians realize this needs to be adressed.
Using LLMs to fact check is a flawed proposition, because ultimately what it provides are language patterns, not verified information. Nevermind its many examples of mistakes, it's very easy for them to provide incorrect answers that are widely repeated misconceptions. You may not blame the LLM for that, you can scratch that to generalized ignorance, but it still ends up falling short for this use case.
But as much as I dislike ads, that last one is part of the problem. Humans losing their livelihood. So, going back to a previous point, how does the lowered ad budget help anyone but executives and investors? The former ad workers get freed to do what? Because the ones focused on art or writing would only have a harder time making a career out of that now.
Accelerationists?
load more comments
(3 replies)
Top quality luddite opinions right here. Plenty of fear and oprobium being directed against the technology, while taking the kleprocratic capitalism and kakistocracy as a given that can't be challenged.
That seems to be the theme of the era.
Yes, it is incompatible with the status quo. That's a good thing. The status quo is unsustainable. The status quo is on course to kill us all.
The only real danger AI brings is it will let our current corrupt leaders and corrupt institutions be more efficient in their corruption. The problem there is not the AI; it's the corruption.
But there's also real danger here today.
For example, ‘Life or Death:’ AI-Generated Mushroom Foraging Books Are All Over Amazon
snicker drewdevault is an avid critic of capitalism. thats entirely the point of this post actually.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Sure, it's all about capitalism. Nothing good like this could ever come from advances in technology:
ML is a tool and like most tools it has broad use cases. Some of them are very, very, good.
There is a name for this debating technique where you go "sure, there was nothing good about Hitler - except he cared about dogs!". Can't remember. Is it strawman?
I think we all understand that capitalism is mostly bad for humans, and really good for corporations and their owners. AI and robots will be exploited to replace people since they are massively more powerful and much cheaper.
A few things will be better I guess, but most will be worse. People already are not actually needed to work this much anymore, and as soon as they can be replaced with something cheaper and more efficient they will. That is capitalism.
A strawman argument is where you ignore what was said by the other person and instead respond with something distorted. That's not what I did - the core premise of Drew's argument is that AI will not "make the world better" and I provided a crystal clear example of how it makes the world better.
It was just one example, and obviously not the complete picture, but what choice do I have? It's such a broad topic I couldn't possibly list everything AI will impact without writing an entire book.
I think we all understand that capitalism is mostly bad for humans, and really good for corporations and their owners.
No I disagree. Corporations exist exclusively to benefit their human owners them. Which means anything that's "good for corporations" is good for a select small number of humans.
Don't blame "capitalism" for wealth inequality. Blame the actual humans (e.g. Donald Trump, Elon Musk) who have made it their life's work to drive the global economy even harder into a world that benefits the fiew and ignores the struggles of the many.
Also - not all corporations are bad. Some of them do great work that truly benefits the world and I would personally put OpenAI in that category. Their mandate is not to make a profit - and in fact the amount of profit they can legally make has been limited. Their mission is literally "to ensure that artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity". I hope they succeed, and I think they will. Drew is wrong.
I disagree. If we replace this writer with ChatGPT4, it would generate a more balanced article.
More balanced articles are not necessarily better though. I'd dather read two conflicting opinions that are well thought out than a mild compromise with unknown bias.
I'd dather read two conflicting opinions that are well thought out
That's where it all falls down of course. Because these opinions are anything but well thought out.
Why would ChatGPT be more “balanced,” what does “balanced” mean, and why is it better?
This is a very one sided way to look at things. Yes, people will use AI to generate spam and stuff. What it is missing is that people will also use AI to filter it all away. The nice thing about ChatGPT and friends is that it gives me access to information in whatever format I desire. I don't have to visit dozens of websites to find what I am looking for, the AI will do that for me and report back with what it has found.
Simply put, AI is a possible path to the Semantic Web, which previously failed since ads and SoC were the driver of the Web, not information.
Sometimes I really wonder in what magical wonderland those people complaining about AI live, since as far as I am concerned, the Web and a lot of other stuff went to shit a long while ago, long before AI got any mass traction. AI is our best hope to drag ourselves out of the mud.
The real problem is that AI isn't good enough yet. It can handle Wikipedia-like questions quite well. But try to use it for product and price information and all you get is garbage.
which previously failed since ads and SoC were the driver of the Web, not information.
Can you elaborate on why you think the ads wouldn't sneak in again? The semantic web is a fantastic concept, but I don't immediately see the AI connection. AI doesn't magically pay for authored content and there is still an incentive to somehow get ads into LLM answers.
Can you elaborate on why you think the ads wouldn’t sneak in again?
You can run a LLM at home on your own PC. Think of it less as a replacement for Google and more like the computer from StarTrek. You tell it what you want and it goes to search the net for you. What you see is just the answer, in a format specified by you, not the websites they came from.
Google, Bing and Co. will of course add ads into their services, but that's a short issue. AI will fundamentally reshape how we interact with computers and information in the long run.
The semantic web is a fantastic concept, but I don’t immediately see the AI connection.
The semantic web relies on human doing the markup, that's doomed to fail, nobody has the time for that and even if they spend the effort, they would miss a whole lot of information that is in the text. A LLM can extract semantic information directly from the text without any markup and you can query that information with natural language. That's not only way easier on the creators side, but also way more powerful on the users end.
You can run a LLM at home on your own PC. You tell it what you want and it goes to search the net for you.
Unless it's open-source and connected to a proper crownsourced dataset, hosted on a paid server managed by a community instead of a big corporation, I don't see how ads are NOT getting in.
Yes, but that's already the case. There are numerous Open Source'ish language models around that you can run on your own PC, no server required:
- https://old.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/wiki/models/
- https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp
- https://github.com/oobabooga/text-generation-webui
And some of them are getting pretty damn close to ChatGPT performance:
There is of course still plenty of work that needs to be done in letting LLMs interact with the outside world, use a webbrowser and stuff, but there are projects for that as well, e.g. AutoGPT. Just a matter of time until that stuff becomes good enough to be usable.
Thank you very much. My concern is rather in the direction of inserting ads or "promotional information" into the training material, much like SEO plagues search today. If the info is from the web it can still be malicious, even if you run your own LLM.
They'll certainly try, though it'll be quite a bit trickier due to LLMs providing direct answers, not just a list of sites. You can't really sneak a product in there when it doesn't actually fit the question. I think the bigger problem is just the lack of good information out there. Finding trustworthy reviews these days is getting really hard, most of the time all you have is the product description and some Amazon reviews, which even when done well, fail at providing how product X compares to product Y. No matter how smart the AI will be, that always leaves a ton of room for error and misinformation.
Hard to tell how things will end up. For the time being, LLMs are pretty much completely useless for product search, ChatGPT just doesn't know enough and BingChat will just summarize the first three SEO-filled Bing search results. The deep knowledge LLMs have on Wikipedia-like topics is missing when it comes to products and services, and they can't really do calculations either, so price information is almost always wrong. This will need some specific optimization.
I don't know why you want to use an AI to purchase goods and learn about products. That's what the current www is really really strong at. Lots of people are spending an awful lot of money to make that information really easy to discover, and popular search engines definitely prioritise that information.
Also, if an AI is to give you price and product information it's going to have to be reading live web pages, which will of course be full of ads. SEO will become AIO/LLMO. There is no end to the time and money advertisers are prepared to pour into getting products in front of users. The irony is that you seem to want to view products and you have this weird perspective where you're keen to avoid ads for products so that you can view marketing information about products without the ads.
It's already fairly hard to tell without knowing some good websites or reading through to conclusions and using some common sense whether a review website is honest or biased. I don't know why you think an AI with access to the Internet will filter out fake reviews and content crafted to lead you to specific products over others.
Also, downloading and configuring your own AI is unlikely to be the way the "AI revolution" comes. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Apple and other mega corporations will be funding the "AI revolution" and will not sit idly by allowing their kingdoms to crumble.
The number of people who will be saved from the corporations that run the online world by open source grass roots AI will be smaller than the number of people who are saved by Linux from proprietory products and SAAS.
Yeah, everyone will get used to using an AI to interact with the web, but it will be freely supplied by a corporation, and I PROMISE you the enshitification of AI has been long planned before we even reach step one of making it awesome for the masses.
That’s what the current www is really really strong at.
You must be using a different WWW than I am, since product search for me is absolutely terrible. Even the simplest of queries can't be answered, e.g. something trivial as "what's the cheapest thing that matches query" fails due to some products coming different package sizes (e.g. 100g vs 1000g). If you want to buy a movie or game, and want to know about sequels and prequels, you have to go to Wikipedia to find out, since I have yet to see a single shop that organizes that well. Or try to find the equivalent of a product in another country where the original product isn't available. Or try to search for the cheapest way to buy multiple product at once, taking shipping cost into account. Even just figuring out the size or what's actually in the box is often impossible, I have yet to see another site that gives you a full CAD model of the products like McMaster-Carr.
Product search on the Web is utter garbage. I am kind of surprises that nobody ever put serious effort into making that work well. Googles product search is garbage and most other search engines don't even have a specific product search. A product search engine that automatically bundles up information from different, shops, Youtube videos and comments doesn't exist as far as I know.
Lots of people are spending an awful lot of money to make that information really easy to discover
Amazon deliberately puts sponsored products on top to make it harder to discover what you want. Some small shops put effort into it and let you search products according the specs, but that only works in that single shop, I have yet to see a search engine that can handle that across multiple shop and with any semblance of reliability.
Also, if an AI is to give you price and product information it’s going to have to be reading live web pages, which will of course be full of ads.
Yes, but that's irrelevant as long as only the AI reads it. I don't care what ads my adblocker reads either.
I don’t know why you think an AI with access to the Internet will filter out fake reviews
I am not looking for reviews, but for reliable and detailed product information. An LLM can help gather that information from multiple different sources and format it in a unified way. SEO has limited influence on that, as either the product has those specs or it has not, in which case the LLM should be able to find contradictions in the information and automatically write a letter to whatever consumer protection office is responsible for false advertisement.
Also, downloading and configuring your own AI is unlikely to be the way the “AI revolution” comes.
Given the way privacy is getting traction in the public consciousness, I wouldn't be so sure. Look at how many people already use adblockers, around 40% or so, that's quite a lot, many of them will be upgrading to some form of AI driven adblocking and information gathering sooner or later.
You know that a LLM is a statistical word prediction thing, no? That LLMs "hallucinate". That this is an inevitable consequence of how they work. They're designed to take in a context and then sound human, or sound formal, or sound like an excellent programmer, or sound like a lawyer, but there's no particular reason why the content that they present to you would be accurate. It's just that their training data contains an awful lot of accurate data which has a surprisingly large amount of commonality of meaning.
You say that the current crop of LLMs are good at Wikipedia style questions, but that's because their authors have trained them with some of the most reliable and easy to verify information on the Web. A lot of that is Wikipedia style stuff. That's it's core knowledge, what it grew up reading, the yardstick by which it was judged. And yet it still goes off on inaccurate tangents because there's nothing inherently accurate about statistically predicting the next word based on your training and the context and content of the prompt.
Yes, LLMs sound like they understand your prompt and are very knowledgeable, but the output is fundamentally not a fact-based thing, it's a synthesized thing, engineered to sound like its training data.
You do not query the LLM directly. The LLM just provides the baseline language understanding. You use the LLM to extract information out of websites and convert it into a machine readable format. You can do that with ChatGPT today:
Prompt: Extract important product information out of this text and format it as json:
[copy and paste random Amazon.com website]
Answer:
Here's the important product information extracted from the text and formatted as JSON:
{
"Product Name": "kwmobile 8 Port Patch Panel - RJ45 Cat6 Shielded Network Splitter Panel with Ground Wire",
"Price": {
"Discounted Price": "$20.99",
"Typical Price": "$22.99"
},
"Color": "Black",
"Brand": "Kwmobile",
"Connector Type": "RJ45",
"Cable Type": "Ethernet",
...
}
That's the power of LLMs. They aren't better a Google, they are a way to interface with semantic information stored in human readable text (or pictures or sound). And with that extracted information you can go and built a better Google or just let the LLM browse the web and search for information relevant to you.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Its staying power will come in the form of replacing competent, expensive humans with crappy, cheap robots.
Unlikely to replace the "most" competent humans, but probably the lower 80% (Pareto principle), where "crappy" is "good enough".
What's really troubling, is that it will happen all across the board; I'm yet to find a single field where most tasks couldn't be replaced by an AI. Used to think 3D design would take the longest, but no, there are already 3D design AIs.
I’m yet to find a single field where most tasks couldn’t be replaced by an AI
Critical-application development. For example, developing a program that drives a rocket or an airplane.
You can have an AI write some code. But good luck proving that the code meets all the safety criteria.
Fashion designers are being replaced by AI.
Investment capitalists are starting to argue that C-Suite company officers are costing companies too much money.
Our Ouroboros economy hungers.
C-Suites can get replaced by AIs... controlled by a crypto DAO replacing the board. And now that we're at it, replace all workers by AIs, and investors by AI trading bots.
Why have any humans, when you can put in some initial capital, and have the bot invert in a DAO that controls a full-AI company. Bonus points if all the clients are also AIs.
The future is going to be weird AF. 😆😰🙈
Unfortunately everything AI does is kind of shitty. Sure you might have a query for which the chosen AI works well but you might as well not.
It you accept that it sometimes just doesn't work at all sure AI is your revolution. Unfortunately there are not too many use cases where this is helpful.
I posit that in 80% of the cases, an AI working well even less than 50% of the times, is still "good enough" to achieve the shittier 80% of goals.
"I'll have a burger with extra ketchup"... you get extra mayo instead... for half the price; "good enough".
This is my worry as well