this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2023
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Linux

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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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Don't get me wrong. I love Linux and FOSS. I have been using and installing distros on my own since I was 12. Now that I'm working in tech-related positions, after the Reddit migration happened, etc. I recovered my interest in all the Linux environment. I use Ubuntu as my main operating system in my Desktop, but I always end up feeling very limited. There's always software I can't use properly (and not just Windows stuff), some stuff badly configured with weird error messages... last time I was not able to even use the apt command. Sometimes I lack time and energy for troubleshooting and sometimes I just fail at it.

I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again. Maybe Linux is not good for beginners working full time? Maybe we should do something like that Cisco course that teaches you the basic commands?

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[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 43 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is always a hilarious conversation because the diehard Linux users will lie up and down about how Linux has no problems and it's just you that's too dumb to understand how to use it.

[–] NathanUp@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Initial setup can be hard, and then, because GNU/Linux lets you do whatever you want, It's not hard to bork the system if you're using commands you don't understand. The biggest realization for me was that if I want a stable system, I can't expect to experiment with it / customize it to the nth degree unless I have a robust rollback / recovery solution like timeshift in place. Feeling very empowered after leaving windows, I have destroyed many systems, but truly, if you set up your system and then leave it alone, these days it's not difficult to have a good experience.

But yea, you're totally right: the userbase can be toxic AF, and there's no one place you can go to learn the basics you really ought to know.

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[–] s20@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hey, the other day I set up a fresh Arch install in like an hour; it was easy as hell with Arch Installer in its current state. But that's me - I've been running Linux for a while, so i might be a bit out of touch with what new folks have issues with.

That said, I think a lot of problems new users have with Linux really do come down to foolish mistakes, an unwillingness to read manuals, expecting Linux to work like Windows/Mac, or a combination of the above.
Not all problems, but many.

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[–] philluminati@lemmy.ml 36 points 1 year ago

People hate Linux because shows they aren’t computer experts, they’re just Windows power users.

[–] Obsession@sh.itjust.works 26 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm a devops engineer, so I understand Linux well. I actually used exclusively Linux all throughout university.

Linux works just as good as windows for 98% of my uses cases. And for the 2% that it doesnt, I can probably figure out how to get it to work or an alternative.

But honestly, I usually just don't want to anymore. After working 8 hours, I'm very seldom in the mood to do more debugging, so I switch to Windows more and more frequently.

If this is my experience as someone who understands it, most normies will just fuck off the moment the first program they want to run doesn't.

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[–] megane_kun@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The following sums up my experience with Linux thus far: "It's never been easier for the newb to jump right in, but heavens help them if they ever stray from the straight path".

There's been a lot of effort to make things easier for a newb (used to Windows and all that shit) to do what they need to do in most cases. There's been all sorts of GUI-based stuff that means for the 'average' user, there's really no need for them to interact with the command line. That's all well and good until you need to do something that wasn't accounted for by the devs or contributors.

All of a sudden, you'd have not only to use the command line, you may also have to consult one of the following:

  • Well-meaning, easy to understand, but ultimately unhelpfully shallow help pages (looking at you, Libre Office), or the opposite: deep, dense, and confusing (Arch) Wiki pages.
  • One of the myriads of forum pages each telling the user to RTFM, "program the damned thing yourself", "go back to Windows", all of the above, or something else that delivers the same unhelpful message.
  • Ultra-dense and technical man pages of a command that might possibly be of help.

And that's already assuming you've got a good idea of what the problem was, or what it is that you are to do. Trouble-shooting is another thing entirely. While it's true that Linux has tons of ways to make troubleshooting a lot easier, such as logs, reading through them is a skill a lot of us don't have, and can't be expected of some newb coming from Windows.

To be fair to Linux though, 90% of the time, things are well and good. 9% of the time, there's a problem here and there, but you're able to resolve it with a little bit of (online) help, despite how aggravating some of that "help" might be. 1% of the time, however, Linux will really test your patience, tolerance, and overall character.

Unfortunately, it's that 10% that gives Linux its "hard to use" reputation, and the 1% gives enough scary stories for people to share.

[–] Fubarberry@lemmy.fmhy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is all fair complaints about Linux, but I don't really feel like windows is much better. I've had windows break on me or family members a lot over the years. Sure I've had some Linux distros break with an update and fail to boot (namely Manjaro), but windows has broken itself with updates dozens of times for me. The whole reason I started using Linux at all was because windows was breaking so often on my computer that I needed to try Linux to make sure my hardware wasn't defective.

You talk about having to fall back on the command line in Linux, but that's also true on windows without 3rd party software. I've had to use windows command line utilities to fix drives with messed up partitions and to try to repair my windows install after windows update broke it. A couple weeks ago I had to help a friend on windows do checksums using the windows command line because windows doesn't support that through the gui. Meanwhile dolphin on KDE let's you do checksums in the gui from the file properties screen.

I honestly feel like Linux isn't really that much harder or more prone to breaking than windows, people just have less experience with it. The smaller user base means there's a lot less help available online as well.

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[–] infotainment@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Remember that Android is Linux-based -- so keeping that in mind, a massive amount of normal users use Linux on a daily basis.

I think the key is, operating systems are meant to exist in the background. If it's working well, you don't think about it at all.

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[–] BaumGeist@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

My first experience with linux was Ubuntu. Sue me, it was listed under most "most user friendly distro" listicles when I wasn't smart enough to realize those were mostly marketing.

It worked fine for my purposes, though it took getting used to, but it would wake itself up from sleep after a few minutes. I would have to shut it off at night so that I wouldn't wake up in a panic as an eerie light emanated through the room from my closed laptop. I did my best searching for the problem, but could never find a solution that worked; in retrospect, I probably just didn't have the language to adequately describe the problem.

Nothing about the GUI was well-documented to the degree that CLI apps were. If I needed to make any changes, there would be like one grainy video on youtube that showed what apps to open and buttons to click and failed to solve my problem, but a dozen Stack Exchange articles telling me exactly what to do via the terminal.

I remember going off on some friends online when they tried to convince me Linux and the terminal were superior. I ranted about how this stupid sleep issue was indicative of larger, more annoying problems that drove potential users away. I raged about how hostile to users this esoteric nerds-only UX is. I cried about Windows could be better for everyone if the most computer-adept people would stop jumping ship for mediocre OSes.

I met another friend who used Arch (btw) within a year from that hissy fit, and she fixed my laptop within minutes. Using a CLI app nonetheless. I grumbled angrily to myself.

A few years later and everyone's home all the time for some reason, and I get the wild idea that I'm going to be a(n ethical) hacker for whatever reason. I then proceeded to install Kali on a VM and the rest is history.

The point being that some people labor under the misguided belief that technology should conform to the users, and because we were mostly raised on Windows or Mac, we develop the misconception that those interfaces are "intuitive" (solely because we learned them during the best time in our life to pick up new skills). Then you try to move to linux for whatever reason and everything works differently and the process is jarring and noticeably requires the user conforming to the technology--i.e. changing bad habits learned from other OSes to fit the new one. The lucky few of us go on to learn many other OSes and start to see beyond the specifics to the abstract ideas similar to all of them, then it doesn't matter if you have to work with iOS or TempleOS, you understand the basics of how it all fits together.

TL;DR Category theorists must be the least frustrated people alive

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[–] Melpomene@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago

Linux user here, also once upon a time a Windows admin. I think the most difficult thing for most users is not that Linux is difficult, but that it is different.

Take Pop_OS for example. For the average "I check email and surf the web" user, it works wonderfully. But most people grew on Windows or Mac so its just not what they're used to. Linux is kind of the stick shift to Windows and Mac's automatic transmission... its not hard to learn, but most folk don't choose to make the effort because they don't need to.

[–] Axellon@lemm.ee 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

In my experience, when Linux works, it’s beautiful (yay package managers). But once you have an issue or go off the beaten path, it can get complex and confusing very quickly. You’ll find a perfect fix… oh wait, that’s for Red Hat. This is Ubuntu and everything is different.

This man page is thirty pages long and has in depth descriptions of all fifty switches in alphabetical order, but all i want is an example on how to do a very simple, common thing with it. And of course, all commands have their own syntax (of course windows isn’t any better, outside of Powershell).

Don’t curl to bash, it’s dangerous. But heaven help the adventurer that tries to do the install manually. And building from the source? Hah!

The registry gets a ton of shit, and yes, it can be opaque and confusing, but hundreds of text files in hundreds of random directories (that might be a different place on a different distro), all with their own syntax, isn’t necessarily all that more intuitive.

You want this to work differently? Then code a fix yourself! What do you mean you’re not a programmer?

I had multiple Ubuntu installs stop updating because the installer by default made the /boot partition (IIRC) something like 100MB. Do a couple updates and that gets filled up with unused files, and then apt craps itself. And this wasn’t all too long ago - well after the point it was supposed to be the district for the everyman.

Like you, I want to like it more, but it’s never smooth sailing. Granted, a lot of that is familiarity with Windows (and believe me, many curses have been thrown MS’s way), but it always seems to turn into a struggle.

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[–] bazmatazable@reddthat.com 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you want a fair comparison between Windows, MacOS and Linux then I think its wrong to compare distros that don't come pre-installed when you buy your device.

Not one single MacBook owner had to install their OS and configure drivers etc. None of my family, friends or coworkers had to install Windows on any of their PCs (I know that some people do but not in any of my social circles).

Consider Pop_OS from System76 or Tuxedo OS from Tuxedo Computers, they have identical user experiences as Mac or PC:

Step 1: Buy computer Step 2: Turn on Step 3: Answer some one time setup questions Step 4: Get on with your life

If you have the opportunity to build your own PC and fresh install an OS from scratch then when you come across a problem that you don't have experience with you will be understandably frustrated.

Specifically Windows has the advantage that hardware manufactures always make drivers for Windows. If your hardware is supported then the Linux OS installation is not very different, but when the hardware is not plug-and-play then configuring Linux becomes its own kind of frustration torture.

TL;DR Get your computer with the OS already installed, then Linux is no more frustrating than a Mac or PC. Install Linux yourself and your mileage may vary.

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[–] Reliant1087@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Have at look at this: https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

I found this to be invaluable when I was borking stuff all the time.

[–] Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 1 year ago

Every software generates errors, problems, and weird bullshit. The main difference I see in this regard, is that Linux usually explicitly tells you what's wrong, and there is always at least couple of ways to deal with it. You have a range of solutions, you have paths to understand and fix the problem, or at least copy enough random commands from StackOverflow to either fix it or break it completely.
With other OS you kind of stuck. Either your problem has a solution someone already thought of, or there is nothing to be done.
As an example, my colleague and me bought the same bluetooth headset, and it didn't work out of the box neither with his windows machine, nor with my Linux. He did the usual reinstall drivers - reboot - reconnect - google shit routine, didn't find a solution, and returned the headset. I did my routine, found the patch for bt-pipewire app, applied it and it finally worked. Later he said "your Linux is stupid, you always have to do some complicated stuff with it, and my windows just works", but I couldn't hear him over the sound of music I was enjoying with my new working headset.

[–] someacnt@sopuli.xyz 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Reading comments, it's soo strange that I never borked my system once during nearly 7 years of linux usage. Playing games were frustrating, but it was improved a lot by now. My ubuntu never failed to boot, the only audio problem I had was with the mic. Even better, KDE Connect introduced new workflow to me. I wonder why my computer always boots well even when it gets borked during shutdown..

Nowadays, I use my own hand-rolled DE. It still refuses to break on me. Guess I am really lucky or something.

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[–] SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

I've been exclusively using Linux for almost a decade now. I started in high school when the computer we had at home was painfully slow with Windows. At start, it did seem a bit hard to wrap my head around. I was a kid, and there was no one who used Linux to teach me. I guess the installation etc. are much simpler nowadays. And the online spaces are much less toxic.

Even after all that, the main reason, I believe, is that it's different. If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn't really a hassle. The installation process might be daunting to some people. But after that, they don't need to open a terminal ever if they don't want to. My sister is basically tech illiterate, and she's been running Mint for a few years now. Never heard any complaints. Only issue she had was when she deleted her .config folder. But I had set up a script that backed up dotfiles to her external drive, so it was easily fixable.

People get frustrated because whenever something happens on Linux, and they go online, they see all these walls of text that they need to read, and commands they need to run. But they forget that on Windows and Macs, that isn't even an option. Most of the time, you need to reset your system. Or, in the case of Macs, get it replaced. The frustration that people experience is caused by conditioning. They accept the inconveniences of Windows and Macs because they grew up with it. But since Linux is new to them, the shortcomings stick out much more.

TL;DR: For the average user, the OS doesn't matter (they should probably still use Linux for increased privacy). For the power user, unless some specific applications they need are missing, Linux is always the best choice. The frustration is mostly due to conditioning.

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[–] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think it is a mix of closed mindedness and unfair metrics.

Like no one would say that Windows sucks because it cannot run Final Cut Pro, but that standard gets put on Linux all the time.

As far as intuitive that has to do with context. Going from Windows to macOS or in reverse is also going to take some getting used to.

[–] freeman@lemmy.pub 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Linux, even compared to windows, often doesn make things "easy".

Mac by comparison makes things incredibly easy, often as the detriment to customization options. But they have really made things like security very well integrated and behind the scenes. You can do Full Disk Encryption in a fairly secure manner with a simple check box. On windows its a bit tougher, normally more of a click through session where they try and make it easier, but give you options to retain the keys yourself at your own risk.

linux...its fairly easy during install. Post installl....basically not possible and for some you have to run through a guide like this: https://mutschler.dev/linux/pop-os-btrfs-22-04/

Thats straight up not digestable for 99% of the world.

Similarly mac makes backups a goddam breeze. Windows is a bit harder but theres a lot of developed software to knock it out thats very good and relatively simple. Linux....well see the guide above as well.

There are places macOS falls short. For example docking stations are a fucking mess and tied to the processor version in new iterations. Ie: You need a M2-pro for 2+ screens. M2 ultra for higher resolutions iirc and a M1/M2 standard can only do a single screen. Theres also Thunderbolt considerations. Its so goddam convoluted we bought dell displaylink docs for most at work.

There are also places windows does well. AD and group policy in a corporate environment are awesome. Simply unrivaled. For someone that plays video games. Windows excels at video games, egpus are legit hotpluggable, drivers are unrivaled there. Linux is getting better than ever but even still. Fired up steam on my Pop_OS and cant get games to launch, even when they show as usabled in protondb.

Linux is unrivaled with options and customization though. But not a whole lot else on the desktop space. On the server side, they are pretty goddam solid from a stability and performance standpoint.

[–] venoft@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

After using Linux for years now I still don't understand where programs install to, it's always in some random ass folder.

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[–] warmaster@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Lots of things don't have a GUI, if we expect users to eat up the CLI, the year of the Linux desktop will never come.

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[–] Uno@monyet.cc 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

As a linux noob, I can't give some in depth explanation, but I can empathize over troubles troubleshooting 😭

I mean, to first acknowledge the base difficulties of just getting used to a new operating system that doesn't want to hold your hand, all the troubleshooting advice being splintered across multiple distros and updates, and most software just not being designed to be compatible with Linux, it's impressive there are distros that manage to be beginner-friendly-ish in the first place.

For instance, when I was setting up Ubuntu, the following didn't work out of the box:

  • The general need to reinstall every program you use
  • The microphone
  • Switching between Windows and Ubuntu led to a weird time difference on Window's part (it still does)
  • My fingerprint sensor stopped working (I don't even think this is fixable)
  • My brightness hotkeys stopped working (they still don't)
  • touchpad scrolling was really fast (I honestly just got used to this rather than fixing it)
  • Increased the icon size of a lot of things
  • Set up night light settings

But more than that, I'd say one of the hardest things about Linux is that it is so customizable it inspires me to find a solution to issues I would've just ignored on Windows. For example:

  • I moved the time bar from the top of the screen to the bottom
  • Set up my own searx instance (though I hardly use it, if anyone knows how to run a set of code on computer startup please lmk)
  • Installed wine, Lutris, and software to support Linux gaming
  • Set my wallpaper to rotate between a bunch of landscape photos

But ig that's just my 2 cents. Really I wrote this to feel proud of myself for all the troubleshooting I've done 😭

Edit: I frfr love all yall who responded to this with genuine advice, what a great community

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[–] eshep@social.trom.tf 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@leninmummy I've found that many new users can't be bothered to learn new things and don't understand enough about their situation to explain the problem they're having. What they are looking for is someone to simply give them the answer so they can carry on. Many times they'll wind up looking for an answer to a generic question related to, "this doesn't work", and find a generic answer that doesn't work or breaks something when they copy and paste it to their system.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Ubuntu LTS almost never does the things described without user intervention. E.g. breaking over time, apt not working. The most important thing I learned about Linux and Ubuntu was that I was breaking it. Once I drilled that into my head and began learning what not to do, it stopped breaking over time. My main system hasn't been reinstalled since 2016. And that's only because I was bored and reinstalled it at the time. Friends have Ubuntu LTS systems that they've had woking for over a decade, moved over several hardware configs during that time.

With that I have this advice for the newer users:

  • Use Ubuntu LTS. Almost everything else has an extra level of complexity or several that aren't obvious when you first start using them. Yes even user-friendly Ubuntu derivatives. Ubuntu LTS has an extremely large test base so defects are few. It's also stable so the number of defects generally declines over time for a given release.
  • Use the canonical sources of information for Ubuntu. Askubuntu.com, the Ubuntu wiki, the Ubuntu forums, man pages. The Debian wiki can be useful too. Arch'es wiki becomes useful when you begin to know what you're doing so you can translate what's there to Ubuntu.
  • Don't use YouTube for that or random sites that have SEOd themselves to the top of Google. Or ChatGPT.
  • The first question you should ask when something breaks is "What did I do wrong?". Trace your steps. Answer it. Fix it and don't do it again. E.g. something that should work without sudo doesn't, so you run it with sudo. A true classic.

I know many here won't like me suggesting Ubuntu, but the reality is that throwing new users elsewhere is often a disservice to them. Even Debian, which I use too. The proliferation of "Ubuntu bad" across the newer slivers of the community has been just "bad" for those new users. There's a lot of us that can help support new users but we can't do that in places where the "Just try X distro instead" comments outnumber us 10 to 1. In addition there's so much misinformation thrown around as fact that we just can't compete. The D-K level is too damn high.jpg

Source: I've used Linux for 19-years and professionally since 2012, for more use cases than I can count.

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[–] DniMam@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Most of linux fustration come with a lack of drivers and its fragmentation :

  • some friend's printer doesn't work with my linux.
  • I remember having a very hard time understanding optimus (nvidia-intel) and making it work.
  • when you use flatpak some thing doesn't work because it's sealed.
  • when a distro remove a very important package...and i have to find it, reinstall it
  • some graphical issue due to the various DE, or an app that haven't updated its graphical scheme.

So most of time, i follow the forum because things aren't working as expected. I lose an incredible amount of time doing that but i love it.

Linux as desktop did lot progress and i believe immutable OS with flatpak/snap will solve the fragmentation issue.

[–] qwertyqwertyqwerty@lemmy.one 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I really wish the Linux community would do a better job of separating the software updates from the core operating system and user space apps. I feel like most distros do the 'move fast and break things' approach, even if that isn't what they intended to do. I forget which distro it was, but they tried replacing X11 with Wayland way before the other distros, and IIRC, they had to revert everyone back to X11. This type of thing cannot be managed by regular users.

Imagine if you had to understand how 90% of every car part worked in order to drive a car, and if you don't understand something you ask for help and everyone ridicules you because they are mechanics.

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[–] jemorgan@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

I think the answer to your question about why it’s frustrating for some people and not others has a lot to do with use case.

One use case that easily makes Linux way less frustrating is of developing software, especially in low-level languages. If you’re writing and debugging software, reading documentation is something you do every day, which makes it a lot easier. Most of the issues where people break their systems, don’t know how it happened, and can’t figure out how to fix it are because they default to copying bash commands from a Wordpress blog from 2007 instead of actually reading the documentation for their system. If you’re developing software, a log of the software you’re installing and using is open source, so you benefit tremendously from a package manager that’s baked into the OS.

If your use case is anything like that, Windows in particular is way more frustrating to use IMO.

If instead your use case is using a web browser and a collection of proprietary closed-source GUI tools, then most of the benefits that you’re getting using Linux are more ephemeral. You get the benefit of using a free and open source OS, not being tied into something that built to spy on you, not supporting companies that use copyrights to limit the free access of information and tools, etc. Those benefits are great and super important, and I would still recommend Linux if you’re up to it, but they definitely don’t make computing any easier.

If your use case is anything like the second one, you’re probably used to following online guides without needing to understand how each step works, and you’re probably used to expecting that software will make it hard for you to break it in a meaningful way. Both of those things directly contribute to making Linux might be frustrating to use at times for you.

If you’re in the second category, the best advice is to get used to going to the official webpage for the applications you use and actually reading the docs. When you run into a problem, try to find information about it the docs. It’s fine to use guides or other resources, but whenever you do, try to look up the docs for the commands that you’re using and actually understand what you’re doing. RTFM is a thing for a reason haha.

[–] sibloure@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The solution is immutable distros like Fedora Silverblue. Immutable distros are almost impossible to break. The base OS cannot be changed - all your system customizations live in your home folder and containers. And you can always rollback to a previous system snapshot if desired. https://fedoramagazine.org/what-is-silverblue/

I used to have the same problem where after tinkering, my system would eventually break and I would need to reinstall Linux. I absolutely love Fedora Silverblue but there are others like VanillaOS for an Ubuntu-based variety.

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[–] Treczoks@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For many it is simply frustrating because it is not Windows. Just think about how many people have a hard time already to get the most simple things done on Windows. Can you imagine those people to switch to another platform? Those people who cannot find their banking app anymore when something moved the icon on the desktop to another position?

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[–] ocassionallyaduck@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I'm a lifelong windows power user, and above average even in my industry for knowledge on technical expertise.

Nothing I know translates to Linux. Not the file structures, the commands, the permissions, the file systems.

You truly have to commit to learning an entirely parallel form of computing environment to become comfortable in Linux. And being frank, it is the most customizable and unique user experience out there, but it is also infinitely less user friendly. And for every time a 2 line terminal command fixes a problem and saves time compared with windows, there are dozens of instances where time is wasted for hours learning that command, its exact syntax and usage, and if it is the one you need for your circumstance.

Another user here recently said that it was when they were going through and compiling their own drivers to make their Webcam work and having to follow guides to make system specific tweaks that they just quit and went back to Windows for ease of use.

Linux is the OS of power users. Not even power users like me, but extreme power users who either have the time or training to learn that parallel system. All of which is easy if this is your job, but in many ways you are learning a second language of sorts.

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[–] TheQuantumPhysicist@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago (10 children)

The Linux community doesn't understand what "just works" really means.

Whether windows or mac, I plug my machine to the docking station, and it just works.

With Linux, every day a different problem. Out of the blue, screens just stop working. Resolutions change. Every restart different behavior. Zero consistency.

I'm not 17 anymore... I don't have the time to keep tweaking. I need to be productive.

So what do I do? I SSH to a Linux machine whose desktop environment I don't wanna see, and code remotely. Most productive setting.

You asked. Here's the answer.

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[–] Mikina@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I love using WSL, and am pretty used to (and prefer) the Linux terminal experience.

However, I wasn't able to switch from Windows. I've always ran into issues that I just wasn't able to solve.

You want your work email and Teams? Too bad, Teams are no longer build for Linux, but you can use this shitty webapp or whatever it was. Want your mail? Sure, there are apps that can connect to exchange, but too bad - your domain policies don't allow you to use them, so you're stuck with O365 on web.

Ok, web it is. Now let's connect to VPN so I can start working. Oh, too bad, your company uses Checkpoint mobile, which dropped client support for Linux. And while it looks like there is some obscure way how to get it working through IPSEC or whatever, I never managed to get it working - and I think it also requires the VPN server to actually enable support for it, which I'm sure our company doesn't have. And then there's also the fact that we just use Word and Excel for most of what we do.

Well then, I guess I'm not going to be able to switch to Linux for work. But I can at least use it for my PC at home, where I just need to be able to develop Unity games, and the rest should be all right.

After spending few hours trying to get my project to build, finding out that you just can't use certain kind of video formats on Unity on Linux, and running into issues with both the Hub and the Editor just throwing random UI errors, I've just given up. Especially since there are things like multipass or WSL, and I only ever need linux for terminal anyway, where I never had any issues.

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[–] infotainment@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Remember that Android is Linux-based -- so keeping that in mind, a massive amount of normal users use Linux on a daily basis.

I think the key is, operating systems are meant to exist in the background. If it's working well, you don't think about it at all.

[–] monobot@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Most people stop trying anything technical as soon as it does not work as they expected.

As soon as something unexpected happens or something expected doesn't happen, they drop it.

While Windows is like that for me and my needs, for them it is Linux.

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[–] Uluganda@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I don't know what average people could do to break their system, considering nowadays, it is practically impossible to break anything if you are using Software Management tool your Distro gave. I don't say I don't believe you. Something could break. But I suppose you are trying to do something that average Joes would not attempt.

I installed Linux on my coworkers, friends and families, and nothing break. Heck, I even gave my friend Arch Linux. I told them to only install thing from the Store and never touch command line without talking to me first. It's been 6 months.

Linux for average people is been there. It's ready. OnlyOffice is just like Ms. Office but Open Source. If you are willing to learn, LibreOffice is far better than Ms. Office. Linux supports all browser. KdenLive and Krita work better in Linux. GNOME is way easier to navigate than Windows, with superior gesture and beauty Windows could only dream of.

Windows has its perk, but saying Linux is hard is no longer true.

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[–] h14h@midwest.social 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Most of the comments here are talking about the x% of time Linux gets messed up it can be really intimidating for new users and getting the right help can be a challenge, or simply more time than it's worth.

I think this is true, but I think there's another thing that irks people:

Software Compatibility

The general public primarily interacts with their computers through established applications that commonly aren't available on Linux w/o intimidating work around (if at all).

A noob who switches to Linux isn't going to know the limitations up front, and the second they decide they want to learn Adobe Premier for work, they're kinda fucked. They'll either spend hours/days of online research trying to figure out if it's even possible, or they'll ask for help only to have someone tell them they're wrong for trying and to use some FOSS alternative because Adobe is an evil megacorp.

It's a recipe for frustration.

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[–] vortexal@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 year ago

While I'm fine with Linux most of the time, the few times I got frustrated with Linux was when I was following instructions and getting different results because either information was wrong or there were steps that weren't included. A few examples I can think of are:

  1. There are a lot of games that I've played (mainly from Itch) that offer a Linux version, but that version isn't tested and often times has mismatched libraries. In one case, they forgot to bundle the Linux version with the game's assets and only included the executable.

  2. A lot of Linux installation guides just tell you that you can just install the distro from it's LiveCD. Maybe this is the case for some computers but every computer that I've installed Linux onto required some extra steps. I've always had to disable secure boot and then re-enable it after installing but I've never seen a guide mention that, just some random answers on askubuntu that suggested it. They also never mention that you should use the LiveCD to make sure that everything is working properly.

  3. There are some emulators that I've never gotten the Linux versions of to work properly and I can only get the Windows versions to work properly. PCem keeps telling me it can't find any bios even though I put them into the specified folder. Mesen (the pre-Mesen2 version) runs but I can't change any of the settings and the only documentation that exists is for the Windows version.

[–] DaFuqs@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

As a mostly windows user, I've tried a few times, using various distributions. When buying my last pc and installing a popular linux distribution, it did not recognise my network card at all. Researching online told me I had to compile the drivers myself, since my distri did not have any shipped with it yet. ...which is pretty hard, having no internet access because of the network card not working. To be fair, that was ~8 years ago.

For non-tech users, I feel like some parts are still pretty hard to diagnose. If an issue arises you mostly have to touch the command line and I can understand people being scared of it, having to edit plain text files, or type and enter commands that aren't descriptive, much less finding the right command by guessing. It certainly improved, with GUIs being available for most stuff, but if you want something specific, is still feels pretty rough on the edges sometimes, from the eyes of a normal user.

If you mostly need your basic apps, like browser, some office apps or a music player it works great, though.

[–] Tekchip@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nearly everyone forgets how hard windows was to learn initially.

I spent the better part of a child hood and the first 10 years of an IT career learning it. Does that sound like a simple or easy system? Conversely I've spent slightly less time but an equal 10 years of an IT career learning and supporting Linux. I've only recently in the last 3 or so years started to feel like I truly grasp Linux and started using it as a daily driver on personal machines.

I now find Windows absolutely horrible to work with. All the nonsense MS foists on it's users. The inflexibility. The weird choices. The licensing nonsense.

The bottom line is not that Linux is harder. It's that Linux is different and different is scary and uncomfortable. Different is hard, not linux. People are lazy and creatures of habit. We like familiar. Few of us actually enjoy the work of learning something new that isn't easy. If we did more of us would probably be pilots or engineers or whatever hard thing to learn you want to choose.

If you're into computers and you still find it hard or constraining keep at it. The Ah, ha! moment is coming. There's a paradigm shift in thinking you'll hit and suddenly you'll get it. When you do you'll find it's magnificent and powerful and freeing.

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[–] NathanUp@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

I remember feeling really limited on GNU/Linux; for me, it was the desktop environment. Switching to KDE Plasma gave me back the kind of power and usability I was used to from the GUI.

Besides that, always be sure you're following tutorials for your specific distro, and a recent version at that. In my early days, I borked my system many times by pasting commands I didn't understand meant for other distros or older versions of the distro I was running.

On software, I would recommend trying to find FLOSS replacements wherever possible. People often sell Linux as being able to run most windows software, and while that's true, you'll almost always have a better experience after taking the time to learn a FLOSS tool written for the platform. Even with proprietary native applications, companies often consider GNU/Linux an afterthought and the experience suffers. If you're using KDE Plasma, for example, try finding a KDE app at apps.kde.org.

For a distro billed as beginner friendly, I always had issues with Ubuntu too. The most trouble free distros I've ever used were Manjaro (which I still use to this day on machines I want to just work out of the box - ignore the hate), and Mint. Manjaro comes with an official KDE Plasma verson too.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Using it since I was 12

People have been using X since that age so anything different is going to be jarring. Just the smallest roadblocks can put people off of stuff. Why bother learning something new when the old thing works?

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[–] art@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This sounds like an Ubuntu problem, sadly. Ubuntu is, in my experience, a mess of a distribution. Debian works almost flawlessly and I think you'll have less issues with a properly run distro.

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[–] cefadroxilthranduil@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Learning cli tools takes time. My advice: don't do anything unless you are %100 sure what you are doing or you know how to revert whatever you did. When I first started using Linux I used to mess everything up by trying to solve my problems copy-pasting commands blindly. But in time I wanted to know what those commands were are, what each argument did etc. Apart from the cli tools, one can still mess things up with GUI apps if you edit system files blindly. Now this happens for people who want to dive a bit deeper. If you want a less risky swim, there are immutable distros where it's less likely to break things.

I still keep track of what I install and what I change on my system. That helps a lot too.

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[–] denissimo@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is like asking why manual or automatic is frustrating. You mostly use the thing you have grown up with and that's it, particularly when you got bills to pay and there isn't much free time unfortunately. If you put it into perspective, a massive amount of users already hold Linux in their hands and everyday life: Android. Nah let's get back to computers.

IT class back in college taught a wee bit of Linux. I was one of the few who were interested and did what the teacher said, the rest played Hearthstone. Linux Mint is what intrigued me since high school. A wonderful OS that brings life to laptops too slow for Windows 7. But I'm still the cozy and unbothered person who sticks to Windows on their main machine. I just want to relax after a good days work and play Forza Horizon 5. However I do enjoy my Linux laptops that won't run red hot just because of Windows Update, Defender, telemetry and other garbage. My love&hate about Linux is that there are so many distros to choose from. There were times when x is better than y and it was(still is) the devils circle: distro hopping. Today I'm cool with Ubuntu derivatives like Mint and Pop, along with Fedora and Suse, since a decade of having at least one Linux PC I still don't find joy in advanced stuff like Arch. Anyway use the thing you are comfy with and don't let anyone judge you, live your life. <3

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[–] ohlaph@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The average person wants the iphone experience. They want the device to just work. Sometimes, in Linux, you have to install things that aren't so straight forward and the average person has no clue how to do that.

If we want more people on Linux, we need to dumb it down a lot.

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[–] selawdivad@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

The first step is to make sure your hardware is supported. I've found the linux hardware database to be invaluable getting new systems configured. The site is overwhelming at first, but the easy path is to just click the big 'Probe your computer' button and follow the instructions. Once you've done a probe, you'll get a web-page with a listing of all your computer's hardware and the support status. Even better, you get links to additional drivers or kernel modules required to get stuff working which isn't supported out of the box.

[–] QuazarOmega@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again.

That's common when you start adding random PPAs, running some commands without understanding (we all do 👀) and whatnot, but you can save yourself from reinstalling over and over by using an immutable distribution so at any point you will know what changed in your system and if it breaks you can just roll back to the previous working point and either fix your mistake or wait for a fix from upstream when an issue happens there (this year there were a few kinda major hiccups on Fedora for example).
I suggest you try one of the Fedora immutable spins (Silverblue, Kinoite, Sericea) or Vanilla OS, though I would hold off from it until Orchid comes out.
If you want to go all in you can use NixOS, but it takes a lot of reading

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