this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2023
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PeerTube has a federation problem (lemmy.film)
submitted 1 year ago by MetaStatistical@lemmy.film to c/fediverse@lemmy.ml
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With the mass migrations of Reddit users to Lemmy/Kbin, and Twitter now speedrunning its own mass extinction, it seems me that the eventual future of social media is de-centralized. I like how Lemmy is slowing turning out, even if it still has some work to do and growing pains to fix up. It's still able to inform me of all of the current events I want and has a large enough community that it doesn't feel empty.

I think a similar path will present itself for a de-centralized video media platform like PeerTube, since YouTube will eventually piss off enough of its users to cause a similar kind of exodus. Wanting to jump in on the concept at an early stage, I signed up for a channel on spectra.video and uploaded my video collection there.

But, I don't really see the same kind of community and usefulness on PeerTube. I check out the Discover and Trending pages, and it just seems like the same set of videos, really. There's not enough content to keep PeerTube from looking like a small indie project. I can click on Recently Added and it is usually other people just dumping their channel collections, instead of recent adds of new videos. It's very easy to scroll down and find videos from months ago.

After poking around on various other PeerTube sites, I think I found the real problem with the platform: Federation.

For example, let's look at how federated Lemmy's community is:

All interconnected with hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of other instances. If you sign up for one Lemmy account, you have little risk in not being able to access a remote community elsewhere. It feels like a federated community, where everything is de-centralized, but communication is linked everywhere. I can even link to my own video channel from Lemmy.

Now, look at PeerTube's instance lists, based on what I've seen on the Join PeerTube site:

It's all so bare. At most, 80-90 instances for some sites. I can't see a lot of other instances' videos, and they can't see mine. Not from here or here or here or here or here or here or here or here.

It makes PeerTube a large collection of small silos, instead of a real federated community. People want to be able to sign on to an instance and find the content they want without having to jump through all of these different instances. Subscription feeds rely on having a unified list from many different instances. The technology has a lot of potential, but the PeerTube community is not nearly as organized as the rest of the Fediverse.

This sounds like a somewhat simple problem to solve, but I'm not sure what other kind of technological hurdles exist. How did the Lemmy community solve it?

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[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 48 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I dunno. I think trying to treat peertube the same as lemmy is going to be impossible. Video hosting and sharing is a massive data hog. It's going to take a dedicated non-profit organization to make it viable. Without a backbone like mastodon has, I don't see it ever being anything useful.

[–] SilentStorms@lemmy.ca 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Not to mention monetization. A big reason Youtube is what it is is because it pays its creators.

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

YouTube pays its creators in peanuts. That's why almost every YouTube video has a sponsor, or is thanking its Patreons, or both.

I have a full-paying job, so I don't bother with monetization. I feel like monetization is a boat anchor designed to shackle creators with arcane unspoken rules and unfair copyright claims. (My Babylon 5 video is still technically marked as ineligible because I criticized TNT when talking about Crusade.) I specifically signed up for Google AdSense to turn off ads on my YouTube videos.

I think what PeerTube is doing by having a Support section is good enough. Donate to your instance or donate to your creators directly. It's a helluva lot more money than YouTube would be paying.

[–] SilentStorms@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I dunno dude, your average uploader might not be making a ton off AdSense, but the large creators that bring in the majority of users are making bank. The sponsers and Patreons are there to diversify income streams, as Google is notororiously prone to mashing the demonetization button. There are billions of dollars flowing through YouTube, and I don't think that a decentralized platform running on volunteers and donations is going to be able to compete with that.

Overall I think you're being unrealistic with the Fediverses place in social media, and overly optimistic about the future of it. I doubt the platform will ever have true mass appeal, which is fine.

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I dunno dude, your average uploader might not be making a ton off AdSense, but the large creators that bring in the majority of users are making bank. The sponsers and Patreons are there to diversify income streams, as Google is notororiously prone to mashing the demonetization button.

Both YouTube and Twitch are very top-heavy organizations. Something like the Top 5000 channels make up 75% of Twitch. The rest are picking up the loose pennies on the ground. If PeerTube becomes a platform for the other hundreds of thousands of channels that don't get paid millions of dollars, so be it.

Overall I think you’re being unrealistic with the Fediverses place in social media, and overly optimistic about the future of it. I doubt the platform will ever have true mass appeal, which is fine.

It'll be a slow burn, that's for sure. But, platforms like phpBB, MySpace, Fark, Digg, and Tumblr didn't fall in a day. It was a slow descent into bad decisions and inadaptability that caused these platforms to vacate over a period of years.

[–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

YouTube pays its creators in peanuts

I mean they get 55% of ad revenue and 70% of subscriptions. Even if youtube started running as nonprofit tomorrow, they could only pay creators a tiny bit more.

[–] housepanther@lemmy.goblackcat.com 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I dont think it's a problem of lack of interest but one of resources. You literally need in the 100s of terabytes of storage space, especially for HD videos.

[–] freeman@lemmy.pub 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Even if fully decentralized. Many vps providers and isp have bandwidth limits. One video on your self hosted channel goes viral and boom. Instance is down.

[–] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thet's where "Peer" in "PeerTube" comes in, while watching a video you automatically donate your own bandwidth to other people so that they can download it from your computer instead of from the server.

[–] freeman@lemmy.pub 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

How does that work for people using things like cell phones and or streaming devices or those behind cgnat such as many cell carriers use?

A lot of folks that use services like YouTube are not doing so on devices equipped to donate bandwidth.

[–] Atemu@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't see how cellphones or CGNAT play into this. If you can send real-time voice data in a web call P2P in your browser (webrtc), you can send semi-real-time video data P2P aswell.

[–] freeman@lemmy.pub 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cellphones and streaming devices often have extremely limited space allowed for caching content and aren’t designed for serving content but are heavily used for consuming content. Most younger users aren’t watching YouTube from a browser, it’s mostly coming from phones and streaming devices. Android may be less stringent but Apple is very aggresive in how the caching can be used and managed.

. Additionally because cell phone usage is often 99.99% used to download and bandwidth on a cell services is generally treated as aggregate they will often only Qos tcp acks and heavily deprioritize literally everything else to make room for download bandwidth.

[–] peereboominc@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Should be something like the system that torrents use: each instance provides the video at the same time to the same user. Some instance give 100kb/s and another 900 kb/s. In the end, the user streams the video with 1000kb/s

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[–] firewuf@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

YouTube hasn't had the same meltdown as Twitter and Reddit, which might explain PeerTube's relatively small scale.

The meltdowns I mentioned brought a lot of attention to their Fediverse alternatives, but YT hasn't really had such a meltdown because Google is somewhat smart and knows not to rock the boat too much lest they have a Twitter or Reddit moment.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Google (YouTube) is banning users using AdBlock. They're also working on installing internet-wide DRM. So yeah, they're having the same "meltdown".

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think there needs to be an option to link to a PeerTube instance without having to always host the material. Have some sites where you host videos, but other peers where you don't because you can't afford to host all of it. That would at least solve the federation problem. Hopefully, they can have enough "tier 1" peers (seeders) to serve the content from multiple sources.

Also, why can't videos use torrent technology to serve the data by other viewers?

[–] kafa@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Also, why can't videos use torrent technology to serve the data by other viewers?

from what i read, they do.

i think the problem is the kind of distributed systems it was designed to be vs the kind we are talking about.

PT won't be, at the current state of propagation of content, redundancy and accessibility of content, a replacement for YT or similar.

it could be, but today it cannot.

there is another post mentioning how if certain Lemmy instances keep growing they'll need economic support.

it smells PT, the way it's organised today, needs support right now.

there are various ways to optimise data propagation and replication for scalability of content.

I think the discussion needs to be open towards this question

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[–] janWilejan@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.

PeerTube accounts are for video makers, not video watchers. If I want to watch a PT video, I can do so without an account. If I want to leave a like or comment, I'll do so from my mastodon or misskey account. The reason Peertube servers don't tend to federate with each other is because they don't need to: they federate with mastodon/misskey/pleroma servers for the people who want to watch. (also, the https://spectra.video/about/follows page OP linked seems to ignore non-peertube follows?)

As for finding new videos on PeerTube, I recommend using sepiasearch.org

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

PeerTube accounts are for video makers, not video watchers.

Personally, that seems like a short-sighted way to use the platform. If there was ever an exodus of YouTube users, new users should be able to sign up to a PeerTube instance and browse in a similar manner as YouTube. They would search for "PeerTube", find the "join PeerTube" web site, and sign up, just like how they joined Lemmy or Mastodon. Most wouldn't think to log into a local Lemmy or Mastodon instance and try to somehow link to a completely different platform like that.

If I want to watch a PT video, I can do so without an account.

People will, very quickly, want to be able to subscribe to channels.

If I want to leave a like or comment, I’ll do so from my mastodon or misskey account.

Nothing about this interface tells me I can log into an outside account. In fact, if I happen to click a link to watch a video, there's nowhere to go to in order to watch the video from my non-PeerTube account. I would have to log into my local Lemmy instance, and find the video from the POV of the local instance, like here.

Even then, I can't just watch the video and write a comment at the same time, in any sane way. I would have to watch the video in a different tab, from the PeerTube web site, and then go back to the local Lemmy instance to make my comment. And the PeerTube tab would take a while before the comment shows up.

To a user that is either non-technical or not familiar with how ActivityPub protocols work, this is a very jarring experience, if they even get that far. Most would give up in frustration far far sooner.

The reason Peertube servers don’t tend to federate with each other is because they don’t need to: they federate with mastodon/misskey/pleroma servers for the people who want to watch.

None of these have YouTube-like front-ends to discover new videos or look at a subscription feed. The PeerTube page does.

Video is video. Posts are posts. Not everybody likes mixing the two.

I watch videos from my TV far more often than I watch from a computer or phone, and I'm sure other people do, too. So, we'll eventually get to the point of a PeerTube TV app on Roku or Android, which would need to have the ability to log into a PeerTube instance to access their subscription feed.

As for finding new videos on PeerTube, I recommend using sepiasearch.org

That's neat, but it's missing a good front-page view like this.

[–] basxto@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People will, very quickly, want to be able to subscribe to channels.

Mastodon can do that. On mastodon channels are groups that boost posts, which means they can be followed. Mastodon handles lemmy similarly.

Even then, I can’t just watch the video and write a comment at the same time, in any sane way.

Yes, but that’s even hard on youtube, because you have to scroll down. It’s easy to do though, despite quite hidden. If you aren’t logged in and press comment or subscribe peertube asks you for you fediverse handle and redirects you to your fediverse instance (on mastodon: corresponding post for comment; follow popup with the group/user for subscribe). In that regard it works a lot better than lemmy.

In fact, if I happen to click a link to watch a video, there’s nowhere to go to in order to watch the video from my non-PeerTube account.

Which gets us back to this, because mastodon embeds the video into the post (the webinterface at least). Clicking on comment does exactly this, but it’s definitely not intuitive and it’s still the player from that peertube instance. I don’t know if it works with anything other than mastodon. It certainly doesn’t work with lemmy right now.

Here a screenshot of it, because I can’t give a link. Mastodon will immediately redirect you to peertube if you aren’t logged in.

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 1 points 1 year ago

Yes, but that’s even hard on youtube, because you have to scroll down.

The mobile version of this is kind of clunky, but PeerTube seems to mirror the functionality with the desktop version of YouTube.

It’s easy to do though, despite quite hidden. If you aren’t logged in and press comment or subscribe peertube asks you for you fediverse handle and redirects you to your fediverse instance (on mastodon: corresponding post for comment; follow popup with the group/user for subscribe).

Why can't that be exposed on the main login page? The general public are used to OAuth logins, where you can pick to use a Facebook, Google, Apple, GitHub account to use, instead of creating a new one. Just expose that kind of UI to the main login pages, everywhere.

A common UI trap is to only have one way to do something and use that as justification that the feature was implemented.

It certainly doesn’t work with lemmy right now.

Which is a shame, but there are few bug reports in GitHub about it at least.

[–] Volodymyr@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I think that's the point, I used peertube for video sharing along with mastodon post for reach. I guess there is not a way to link mastodon snd peertube accounts, but that's not unheard of also in non-federated social media.

[–] hoodlem@hoodlem.me 8 points 1 year ago

My opinions are the same as yours, in my little experience. There’s not a lot of content on there, you can’t see content from other instances, and the content that is on there is not high quality.

One thought that crossed my mind was having a PeerTube instance backing each of the major Lemmy instances for video upload. Anything to reduce our dependence on corporate frequently used sites like YouTube and imgr.

Ok so here’s where it starts falling apart in my head. First, as another poster mentioned, the costs would be through the roof compared to a link aggregating site like Lemmy. From what I understand PeerTube does some Bit torrenty stuff to reduce bandwidth usage. And IPFS could help as well. But at the end of the day you need a server hosting this as a source of truth, with the monumental cost that accounts for.

The other huge problem is moderation. We need strong moderation because jackasses are going to upload CSAM. As single files. Spliced into the middle of legitimate videos. And the fediverse is way too important to have it be associated with that crap. So like I said, extremely strong moderation, for free.

I want to see Peertube take off and overcome these hurdles. If there’s anything I can help develop I’d be happy to take on a ticket.

[–] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think you're totally right. The big difference is that while for a lemmy instance to show you other instances content under 'All' only one other user from your instance needs to subscribe to it and you will be exposed to it. On PeerTube if another user subscribes you will never know about that instance because the server admin needs to manually federate with that instance.

But because there is no good differentiation between 'All' and 'Local' many admins - including me - just don't federate with other instances automatically. What made it worse - I'm not sure if it got better over time - was that if you automatically federated then there would be naked people without NSFW at the top of every discovery, there would be antivax, nazis, all the fringe groups which weren't allowed on YouTube anymore. That would make it impossible to find the local videos and your instance would look like it's run by nazis and would offer bad quality porn.

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm not sure I understand the difference between those problems on PeerTube vs. Lemmy. Lemmy NSFW instances exist, especially since the Reddit NSFW community established a foothold, and they are all properly separated into their own groups and instances. Lemmy admins maintain their own block lists (see the bottom of the instance lists linked) to get rid of the antivax/nazi nonsense, which usually isn't that large, compared to the thousand or so instances they connect to.

Heck, even Lemmy.film and others have links to the porn/NSFW instances, so somehow they are maintaining a relationship to keep things clean on the non-NSFW side.

[–] thanevim@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

This is just my observation, but I think it's because the communities on PeerTube decided to just give up on controlling moderation of instances (perhaps because the instances were popping up like whack a mole?)

So they opted instead to just give up on the idea of any federation on the PeerTube branch of fedi, and now we have the isolated issue of today...

[–] favrion@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I still don't understand the content that you can find on there. Can I find commentary videos from my favorite YouTubers on there? Music videos? Music theory videos? Meme videos? Is it all only educational stuff or technojargon coding nonsense?

[–] iod@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You won't find youtube content on there. Like with reddit and lemmy, creators and users have to switch to bolster engagement.

[–] favrion@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay, but what channels are there to watch?

[–] iod@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To be frank i haven't found much use for peertube yet. All my creators are still on youtube. If you're interested in linux, gaming and open source there are the linux experiment, gaming on linux, the linux cast and Veronica explains but they all mirror their videos from youtube.

[–] favrion@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I don't know what Linux is or how it works, so no thanks.

[–] sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've been so frustrated by Peertube because I feel like it needs leadership that the developers just aren't willing to do. It feels like someone made a product and then never actually used it.

[–] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was just thinking the other day if the dev is even running an instance and I almost certain that they don't.

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[–] RickRussell_CA@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Hosting & recoding video is very expensive. Hosting social media postings is relatively inexpensive.

I think it's as simple as that. Not many people can afford to host peertube instances.

[–] vintprox@geddit.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I observed the same segmentized silos problem a little while ago. Initial reach is SOOOO much harder when federation doesn't work.

Reach is there only when some popular tech vblogger appears, like The Linux Experiment on TILvids - and that's it. Most people are there for that channel and that channel only (Nick's done a good job at promoting it, as we see), which must mean the impression other parts leave on a viewer is considerably worse.

[–] MetaStatistical@lemmy.film 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

TILvids has the worst possible solution by subscribing to nobody in the PeerTube landscape.

[–] vintprox@geddit.social 1 points 1 year ago

TILvids is like your average overprotective uncle...

[–] morrowind@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

It would be a good solution if peertube was growing at a decent pace. But it's not so it ends up just dragging it down

[–] meldrik@lemmy.wtf 1 points 1 year ago

It’s correct they don’t federate with anyone else directly, but it is possible for another instance to follow channels on tilvids and have them show up as viewable content on the other instance.

[–] Madiator2011@lm.madiator.cloud 1 points 1 year ago

Most instances do not enable global index to prevent having to do much federation between PeerTube instances.

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