this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023

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Few Good Options as Israel Weighs a Ground Assault on the Gaza Strip (www.bloomberg.com)

submitted 2 years ago by Rapidcreek@reddthat.com to c/news@beehaw.org

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[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 30 points 2 years ago (2 children)

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[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You mean like the rampage and slaughter last weekend?

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.

If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They've refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.

[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

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[–] emma@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (6 children)

We've all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That's why the border and checkpoints are there.

Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn't an "empty political gesture". Far from it. So far from it.

It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.

And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won't listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.

Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?

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[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

"Withdrawal" can be really misleading, here, because it was very much not disengagement aka leaving Gaza alone: The moved the prison guards from inside the strip to the wall surrounding it and then closed the gate and enacted a blockade, for 16 years straight now. About 50% of Gazans are 18 or under, growing up under those conditions, 80% are reliant on humanitarian aid.

You can certainly make arguments that an arms blockade is warranted. But concrete? Starving the city of water? Yeah that's very much not leaving people alone.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)

Israel can't force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can't force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.

Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn't do that, there wouldn't be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn't limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they "achieved" Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they're not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?

Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren't the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don't have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don't know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.

That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.

Their role in all of this MUST be understood.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

Every restriction also breeds resentment and thus increases violence and terrorism.

There's one question I want to ask here, and it's not an easy one, and Israel will take a long time to come to a national consensus on it: Was it just money that Israel funnelled to Hamas to weaken the PLO, or also fighters?

Once you understand how you created that monster you'll also understand how to starve it. Minds can be changed, the mechanics of conflict and conflict resolution can't.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yep. It's a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.

It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone's efforts towards peace. It's an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦

Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?

So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn't. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They're not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It's an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.

Don't give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants

Israel is militarily, technologically, and economically far superior. That means you have options that Palestinians who want to de-escalate don't have, thus the ball is in your court. Or, well, practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court. That's not a special yardstick we carved just for you, it's not about "who started it" or "who did worst" but "who is in a better position to end this".

Also y'all speak English and are on the internet. I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.

How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power?

Hamas has more than one wing, all dependent on each other, and one of them you can right-out supplant. Heck it even meshes with security concerns: Instead of saying "Gaza can't have concrete because Hamas" say "We're going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we're going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses"

More generally speaking: You will need to be able to take a punch while showing that you can be an asset to your region of the world meaning internally, you'll have to make sure that forces who right-out enjoy having an external enemy to fuel their eternal war have absolutely no influence. Doesn't even need much, all the civil society needs to do is to be receptive enough to understand that Kahanites and Nazis are the same shit with a different coat of paint so that the Israeli Antifa will come back out of exile -- Berlin, I know, of all places. It's an excuse for a city they could've at least chosen Hamburg but I digress.

It won't be easy and it won't be quick, trust isn't built in a fortnight. There's no quick solutions, there's only approaches which breed resentment and those who don't, and one kind is perpetuating hatred, the other isn't. I know this kind of stuff can sound like platitudes but it really isn't. Being disciplined in that regard is the only way.

More concretely, right now, don't fucking blow the Saudi Arabia deal. If you need to stop the offensive to do that, do it.

[–] dark_stang@beehaw.org 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not inevitable, you could stop apartheid.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You think that Israel should ignore that a thousand of their citizens were slaughtered?

[–] dark_stang@beehaw.org 18 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I wonder what could have provoked an attack like. Perhaps decades of oppressive occupation. Constantly escalating violence isn't going to fix this. But Israel is the side that can choose to end it by ending apartheid. All the imprisoned can do to improve their situation is try to fight out of it.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 6 points 2 years ago

This is one of those justification posts. To which I always respond that there is no justification for the various atrocities committed by Hamas. To which you respond with something about Israeli oppression. To which I respond that it still doesn't justify the vile and nasty nature of Hamas action and if your moral compass says it does I feel sorry for you. Then I slowly get bored with your inane ideology. Good. So that's it.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They've killed almost 1000 in Gaza now. Are you suggesting hamas shouldn't ignore that? When does it end.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It is war. It ends when one side gives up or is destroyed.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Either side giving up will be genocide. Or destroyed, which is again genocide.

So essentially your idea of resolution is genocide.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not my idea. Name a war that ended differently.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

WW2. We didn't slaughter everyone in Germany.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

WWII ended with one side surrendering. There was quite a lot of slaughter before that happened.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Right but if one side surrenders here they'll lose their land and be destroyed. They aren't similar.

If hamas get Israel the Jewish population is fucked. Look at what's happening now when they crossed the border. That wasn't war it was slaughter of civilians.

If Israel get Gaza the Palestinian population is fucked. Look at the westbank. That is isn't war either.

It's not the same as any war. It's 100 years of religious / racial conflict.

The only end is an agreement or genocide. And 100 years have shown an agreement is unlikely.

They came over the border a killed 1000 civilians. In retaliation Israel has killed 1000 civilians in air strikes. It's not war. It's slaughter.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Its not a war for land, it's a war for cause. Its not Ukraine.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's been going on for 100 years and it's almost purely over land.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 2 points 2 years ago

Not this time.

[–] ram@bookwormstory.social 10 points 2 years ago

Both the Israeli government and Hamas are wrong and bad. The Israeli people and Palestinians are both indigenous to the land they share, and both have the right to live there. The median age of Palestine is under 20, the people many people in this thread are justifying the genocide of are majority children, because their parents have been killed by the Israel government in an apartheid state. The solution Netanyahu will take will be genocide of Palestinian people, when Hamas is to blame.

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

not committing war crimes, apartheid, and genocide is a good option

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So, they should accept the massacre and feel bad about themselves?

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

they shouldn't respond to an attack by killing innocent civilians also they've been brutally dehumanitizing and terrorising Palestinians in Gaza for years

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Israel definitely could have avoided this, and not fuck up the whole situation so much, but it’s not a simple matter… and self defense is a simple matter… if someone shoots at you, you kill them. That’s what happens when you take a gun. If you massacre a bunch of civilians, then people are going to shoot at you and your accomplices with passion

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

but then doesn't that mean palestinians have a right to self defence?

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

Military targets yes, if there is a missile launcher or ammo in an israeli building, yes it is a valid target. You have to right to kill anyone who’s actively trying kill you.

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The deliberate targeting of civilians is horrible. But it’s well documented that hamas uses people as meat shields, by using civilian buildings as ammo depots and rocket launching platforms. That’s, unfortunately, a fair target then…

[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

gaza is literally a small territory surrounded by water and israel where do you think people would be that aren't targets for missles that level entire city blocks?

[–] khalic@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

This is where a lot of scrutiny will be needed. I can’t think of many good reasons to level city block. But there might be a good reason. It might also be those racist assholes from israeli government are using the situation to take out some Palestinians.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 4 points 2 years ago

Gotta say that bringing up 300,000+ troops in 72 hours is very impressive.