And now I’m here after 17 years on Reddit. 🤷♂️
Technology
A nice place to discuss rumors, happenings, innovations, and challenges in the technology sphere. We also welcome discussions on the intersections of technology and society. If it’s technological news or discussion of technology, it probably belongs here.
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You and me both.... I have seen that place through its ups and downs. From the narwhal bacon's at midnight to Jolly Rancher, Zoop and the swamps of drogba.
I finally left my account a few days ago and haven't been back since. The place is a shell of what it used to be and it's been really very refreshing have a scout about somewhere else.
Fuck greed..... It eventually ruins everything!
15 for me. No ragrats.
It is sad to see an amazing app become rendered useless due to some companies greed. They were not even being reasonable with pricing nor did they really give the dev time to figure out what to do.
I really hope that everyone leaves reddit and comes to the fediverse. Mastodon had a huge boost and it completely replaced twitter for me. I am sure Lemmy can do the same.
I'm hoping Christian ports Apollo to Lemmy. I'm not sure what the feasibility of doing so is but I'd actually pay a monthly subscription for the ability to continue using it
I think he wants the apps to die with its legacy. Maybe he would make another app that does it. I hope he does and I would pay a modest subscription for it.
I hope that on June 30th, when it shuts down, the app doesn't just give an error message but instead displays some kind of farewell message.
Yeah a farewell would be good. In my dream scenario, he would open source it and the community could port it. That might be unlikely though
How do you get to the point where you're accusing Christian of blackmailing you in this situation? You're the 500lb gorilla who's driving all these app developers out of business. Even if you really feel like these app developers have been free riding on your largesse, how do you have so little perspective to be this petty and spiteful?
I listened to the recording, and read the transcript, and I can... I can see it. Not overtly, not intentionally - but the dev did not communicate clearly at all.
Twice the Reddit representative asking him to repeat himself, and still he failed to actually specify his intentions. The wording in the transcript never actually expanded what the dev was saying ('buy out Apollo'). The evasive language made it sound like a shakedown, 'pay me $10mil to make this all go away'.
I linked the dev's own transcript above, but the actual quotes from the dev:
I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20 million per year, cut me a check for $10 million and we can both skip off into the sunset. Six months of use. We're good. [Low voice:] That's mostly a joke.
Okay, if Apollo's opportunity cost currently is $20 million dollars. At the 7 billion requests and API volume. If that's your yearly opportunity cost for Apollo, cut that in half, say for 6 months. Bob's your uncle.
I was just saying if the opportunity cost of Apollo is currently $20 million a year. And that's a yearly, apparently ongoing cost to you folks. If you want to rip that band-aid off once. And have Apollo quiet down, you know, six months. Beautiful deal. Again this is mostly a joke, I'm just saying if the opportunity cost is that high, and if that is something that could make it easier on you guys, that could happen too. As is, it's quite difficult.
Now, we know that what the dev is doing is essentially offering to outright sell Apollo to end the demand it represents to Reddit. He doesn't expect them to take it, but a lot of users asked if it were possible, and he's suggesting it anyway.
But the wording of all of this never specifies 'buying Apollo'. It sounds like he wants Reddit to like... pay him his 'protection fee'. I'm sure he means 'go quiet' as in like, 'go quietly into that good night' (shut down) or 'stop being so demanding' (be retooled), in fact he later clarifies he means the latter and the Reddit representative apologises profusely.
But man, that was worded so poorly, and he was given two opportunities to clarify, and he just... didn't. Only when the Reddit stand-in asked if he was suggesting Reddit buy his silence and compliance did he clarify that wasn't at all what he was saying.
It was completely unintentional, no doubt. But it was miscommunication of the highest order, and it damaged the lines of communication so irrevocably it probably incentivised Reddit to cease negotiations completely.
The problem is this, from the transcript:
Me: I said "If you want Apollo to go quiet". Like in terms of- I would say it's quite loud in terms of its API usage.
Reddit: Oh, go quiet as in that. Okay, got it. Got it. Sorry.
Me: Like it's a very-
Reddit: Yeah, that's a complete misinterpretation on my end.
Me: Yeah. No, no, it's all good.
Reddit: I apologize. I apologize immediately.
The "threat" part was resolved right there. Steve just wanted to retcon the conversation as a way to dog Christian. He didn't anticipate Christian was gonna roll in with receipts.
I listened to the recording and it was .. messy. Christian wasn't clear at all and it seems his intention of making what he described as a lighthearted jest fell like a lead balloon at the Reddit guys feet. To my mind it would have been a very important conversation and therefore if I was Christian I would have kept it business-like and clear. It still doesn't excuse Reddit for weaponizing the conversation and screaming blackmail which makes the CEO come across as a man-baby throwing a fit.
I agree. When I read and listened to the conversation, it's mostly clear that it isn't what he meant but it could definitely be construed in a different way. I think it was a pretty poor choice of words to demonstrate how much of the userbase uses third party apps and how much sway they actually have.
That said, it is what it is. Reddit's PR team is definitely going to try to spin this as negatively as possible even if the Apollo dev is only trying to make a point. At least there were recordings so we can come to our own conclusions.
I imagine his intend was to imply - or at least put pressure on - the idea of Apollo actually costing them $20mil was an inflated number. The idea that it was a real and on-going cost, and had been for a decade, and he's basically daring them to buy Apollo. Because if that number was real, they should leap at the chance:
If you want to rip that band-aid off once. [...] Beautiful deal.
I believe that's why it was 'mostly a joke' - he never expected them to take it, he doesn't believe it actually costs them that much. It's not what he's taking from them - it's what they feel entitled to take from the users, and they blame him for being in the way.
Personally I agree it doesn't cost that much - I believe they believe it does, but only because they look at Apollo's userbase and activity, and decided "oh boy, if we could sell ads to those users and sell their data at those rates, this is how much we would make" and decided that means Apollo is somehow costing them that. I don't think 'opportunity cost' is an appropriate concept to price on, because it relies on obviously false assumptions.
Apollo is definitely costing them server bandwidth, as are the other apps. And it seems all the devs were ready and willing to cover the costs, even negotiate how their users could still be a revenue stream. But Reddit believes they were owed the same profit of Apollo's users that they would make off of their own, and I think that's nonsense.
After all, if somebody pirates Photoshop, it's stupidly naïve to think that every single one of those users would be willing to pay Adobe $80 a month (in some countries that's more than they make in 3+ months). And if somebody goes to a friend's house and watches a Blu-Ray with them, it's absurd to expect they mail a check for $20 to their local theatre.
The expectation that somebody using something convenient/free would use it just as much if it was demanding/unaffordable is... like, they're not stupid, right? They can't possibly be that stupid to think that was even attainable profit for them. I just don't understand why they think that 'opportunity cost' is real.
I think a back of the envelope cost for what each user makes reddit per month was something around $0.22 per month. Which is nowhere near the $2.5 per month their API pricing was suggesting.
This wasn't a question of opportunity cost, and setting prices in good faith. They simply wanted to kill any competition and somehow thought they could get away with this. Hopefully we can show them they can't with the blackout and migrating to other online communities.
I'm still not clear what the alleged threat was, that the app would... make API calls? earning reddit money? That Christian would say unfriendly things about the company that screwed him? What threat is an app developer to a corporation? It's just patently absurd.
Weaponizing the community can be pretty powerful.
I love that Christsin had recordings. Can't wait to see how spez's AMA goes.
That AMA is immediately going to turn into ‘The Roast of Spez’ and I’m honestly quite looking forward to it. It won’t change anything since Reddit’s already too far round the ‘enshittification’ U-bend but it might be the last funny thing that’s ever posted there.
He knew things could go ugly. Good thing he made the recordings.
FYI, a lemmy iOS app, Mlem, is in active development, and we hope to be at 1.0 by July 1. It's heavily inspired by Apollo, but, obviously, with changes for lemmy.
Stay tuned and subscribe to c/mlemapp for updates!
Edit: I want to note that, since one of the biggest sticking points with 3rd-party apps has been both accessibility for the blind and deaf and mod tools, they're both on our minds as we design the interface. Getting both right will, of course, take time, but we want everyone to know that we fully intend to make our app usable for everyone.
While I'm coping that Christian "ports" Apollo over to work with Lemmy, I love what you guys are doing with Mlem. I'm in the beta via TestFlight and what's there works quite well (even though you can clearly tell it's early days).
I'm very new to iOS development, but if I find the time and motivation I might put in the hours to contribute a feature or two.
This is a big reason why I'm here as of today. I just can't in good conscience support what Reddit is doing. I've been an Apollo user since it launched out of beta. I jumped at the chance to have paid Christian twice for both the original premium upgrade. And then the Ultra one later down the road. I just adore the app. When I switched to Android I still found myself missing it terribly. Since switching back to iOS. I've averaged 15-20 hours per week just using Apollo.
End of an era :(
I’m a more recent Apollo user, having switched to iPhone last year. But I’m in the same boat. The third party apps are the only way to go on any platform.
I’ve also been a paying Reddit gold (now premium) user for, I dunno, maybe 10 years. It’s offensive that after all that, I can’t run the software I want to run to access the site. It’s a sign of enshittification.
And frankly, Apollo or not, Reddit isn’t what it used to be. It’s less friendly and welcoming than the narwhal days when /r/LucidDreaming was the hottest community. It’s more abrasive now, more childish. Like the rest of the internet, I suppose.
Yeah, it is completely different than what it used to be. There would definitely be times when a hivemind mentality would get borderline insane. The first subreddit I discovered was r/atheism. And it was nice seeing other people like me. But I remember asking honestly about a girl I was dating at the time being Lutheran and wondering if it could work. Some were supportive. But some people were vile. It was then I could see how nuts it would get.
The communities are so large it has almost gotten too big for its own good. It's made the people who run the site into total monsters. I started off lurking the site about 14 years ago. And the finally made an account 3 years after. 11 years down the drain, I remember recommending the site to people all the way back then. Especially when I started discovering a lot of the meme subreddits that I would share with friends.
Apollo is the epitome of Apple's HIG. Quite literally the best designed app from a UX standpoint on the App Store.
Wow, the fact Reddit is claiming he's blackmailing them for 10 million dollars is insane.
The fact the dev recorded it and posted it online for people to listen to themselves is great. God I love living in Ontario Canada where it's a single party consent to record others on the phone.
I live in South Korea where it's also legal to record only with single party consent. It's not that long ago that I found out that it's not a universal thing. It should be.
Going to miss using Apollo. Great design and Christian built it with the user experience first.
Haha I literally just came from that post! I left the app, downloaded lemmy, made an account, and apparently get to pick up right where I started.
100% my actions as well. Looks like we'll be around for another big tech migration LOL!
I wonder what they'll call it?
Signed up to Lemmy today, but held off to see if the Reddit situation was going to get any better. Seems like it won't, so one big hearty fuck you to them.
I'll try and contribute as much as I can to this community.
Hoping Lemmy is able to re-create the feeling and community of early reddit. The reddit we're all refugees from felt vastly different ten years ago. All of the venture capital funding has ruined something that used to be a replacement for fragmented forum communities. Maybe a mass exodus to federated Lemmy instances can help re-create that early feeling.
Yup, Christian's latest post about Apollo sealed the deal for me leaving. It's a bummer, but hopefully it leads to something new and exciting starting here! I'm guessing there's been a pretty big influx of Reddit refugees.
I read a comment that said the admins are holding an AMA soon to "address the concerns of the community". Can't wait to see that turn into a mega-shitshow.
This is really sad. I rarely posted on Reddit, and I mostly use it as an information source, but Apollo is how I mostly interacted with the platform, and when I did post, it was always through Apollo.
One silver lining is I found Beehaw as a result, and I like interacting and posting here, so I guess... thanks for being shit Reddit!
Well I'm done.
Warned the mod teams in the various subs I mod that I won't be back after the 30th. It's sad because I feel I am letting them down, but the knowledge I've gained from various communities and posts there isn't worth the price now.
Sad news. I use Boost which I love. But won't be using Reddit anymore once 3rd party apps are cut off.
Begun, the migration has.