this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 31 points 1 year ago

About a decade ago, me and my family were part of the very movement that changed the Republican party into the beast it is today. We made it very clear to party members that moderates would not be tolerated. We demonized the RINOs as much as we demonized the Democrats, the Liberals and the Obamas. By primary season of 2016, the last influences of the old Republican party were stamped out. Trump was the achievement of the Tea Party, and how it flipped the neo liberal conservative party into a fascist one.

Blame the Democrats all you want for being milquetoast, weak, or ineffective in the face of the Republican party. As someone who has played for both teams, I have never seen the same fire from Democratic voters to change their party as I have from the Republicans. There is no party wide effort to weed out Democrats who work in the interests of companies only, or are essentially Republicans with the Democrat label. There has been no unified direction for the future Democrats want to see for the US other than the current status quo.

What we did in the Tea Party, is we got involved at every stage of government. We found out who our state and federal legislators were, and if they did not stand with our views, we primaried them out. We took trips to Washington as a church, or as a young Republican's association, and we rallied in front of every monument that they would allow us in front of. In our eyes, our goal was righteous, and we were in a battle for the soul of the country.

I abhor everything I was back then, and feel guilty for the present we have created today. But if there is one take away from my time in the Tea Party that I think could apply to Democrats is you don't have to settle for less. By all means vote for Biden again, but you should make it clear to every Democrat defending their seat next year that you won't be settling for spineless enablers. Now's the time to start campaigning progressive candidates to run against them. Any progressive you get elected should be seen as a victory, and every neo liberal who loses should take it as a message that they are no longer electable. You should practice that democracy as much as you can while you still have it.

[–] Jaysyn@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago

I vote (D) because the other option under our FPtP system is fascism.

[–] tonytins@pawb.social 13 points 1 year ago

So, basically, "you're not doing enough for your party!" Gee, thanks for the encouragement.

[–] housepanther@lemmy.goblackcat.com 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Why, when I am an anarcho-communist, should I work hard to support the neoliberal candidate? I am not lifting a goddamned finger for Joseph R. Biden Jr other than unwillingly casting my vote for him if need be.

[–] drewsipher@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think part of it though is if you at least talk about being willing to vote for him due to the dangers of the current GOP you may sway other communists/socialists who would vote third party to vote for Biden by seeing the good in at least protecting from the current social Neo-conservatism within the GOP.

[–] housepanther@lemmy.goblackcat.com 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I dislike Biden intensely. I meant what I said when I wouldn't lift a finger to help him other than vote for him. I sure as hell am not going to work to sway others in my circle to vote for him. That's entirely up to them and the conclusions they draw. It is going against my principles as it is to vote for someone that does not represent my best interests. It's worse that he doesn't even represent my best interests, he does everything counter to them.

[–] drewsipher@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m fiscally conservative, but I will work to get people convinced to vote for Biden. You said you would as well. That to me is lifting a finger

No, that's not.

There are no viable 3rd party candidates thus far. If one does happen to pop up, I will at least entertain what they have to say and listen to them.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

other than unwillingly casting my vote for him if need be.

For whatever it's worth, as a gay guy with trans friends that have had to flee our home state because of GOP policies, that vote is more than enough for me. I'm more on the normie shit-lib side of online political discourse, but we do still have a lot more in common than with the GOP, and we can come together to work on common goals and prevent a lot of very real harm from happening. I know political progress is a lot slower than you (or I, for that matter) would want, but still, it is genuinely appreciated.

[–] housepanther@lemmy.goblackcat.com 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you consider yourself to be "shit-lib" then we have nothing in common because I want to put a terminal end to both parties and breakdown and rebuild our society from the ground up. Both parties are terrible for different reasons. One impedes progress through tokenism and incrementalism and celebrating that as a victory. The other party are Christofascists. You and I are nothing alike. Note that I am purposely leaving your identity out of this because one thing I feel strongly about is LGBTQ+ rights. People identifying as LGBTQ+ would flourish in a system where one party (i.e. the Democrats) does not use you as pawns and the other party (i.e. the Republicans) does not want to relegate you to an underclass.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well regardless, it's appreciated. Not living under Christofascism is personally something of a priority for me, and I imagine it's not hugely appealing to you either, so even if that's the only common point (which honestly, I do rather doubt), I'll take it.

And hey, if a realistic revolutionary path does open up, I'll at least be open to the conversation. I'm a bit skeptical of that happening anytime particularly soon, but I'll have an open ear should the opportunity arise.

I'm not a violent person but if our society becomes an analog to Talibani Afghanistan, I won't go down without a fight. Better to die fighting than die in a Christian re-education camp.

[–] ChrisLicht@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

To paraphrase Charlamagne tha God: Biden wants to be ratchet pussy.

Our system is a ratchet model, in which the Dems try to maintain the current spot on the continuum, while the GOP moves everything to the right when it’s in power.

[–] Jaysyn@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Because under a FPtP system, the other option, the one you will get from not understanding math & game theory is currently fascism.

[–] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 11 points 1 year ago

On one hand I will be down the D line in the next election because I do understand that the alternative is things getting worse with the republican party and we can only hope two definitive losses can snap the party out of their current strategy and ease up.

On the OTHER hand I'll be honest I dont see the changes in the republican party happening anytime soon especially since it's been this way since reagan. Sure neolibs will clutch their pearls and talk about better days but while the rhetoric may be a little more transparent in some cases, the republicans havent changed all that much. Election fraud fear mongering was a bush era dog whistle, and theyve been chomping away at abortion, appointing conservative leaning judges, and trying to limit public education and programs for decades.

Meanwhile what has the status quo democratic party done about it? They pushed further right in the 90s in order to try to win away Reagan voters and then spent the next few decades as wimpy pro capitalist centrists. Gaining an inch while the right takes a foot and then wagging their finger over how they would never play so dirty. Just look at the last Obama era judge appointee.

They could have fought to make sure their neutral judge would make the bench. But oh no the norms we couldnt do that. Deep down they were so SURE that Clinton could never lose so they wanted to look like they were the grownups who upheld political norms and then get it done anyway. What wound up happening? The republicans repealed that block privilege once in power and pushed their appointments in without issue.

I cant blame people for becoming exhausted and feeling like "not being the republicans" is not enough to keep rewarding the Democrats for being weak. They abandoned the working class and unions in the 90s, they continued to push right and attack their progressive wing while trying to continue to court center right voters. Now that they let the republicans go wild the last 40 years theyre telling us "you better vote for us or DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE! and our policy is the continue doing more of the same"

It's like if an owner of a dog spent years training it poorly and smacking it around is holding the leash tight as the dog starts barking and jumping towards you. You suggest maybe changing the owner of the dog, but they reply "well if Im not their owner anymore then Im going to let go of the leash and who knows what the dog will do while you wait for the dog catcher to come and get it"

[–] eric5949@lemmy.cloudaf.site 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Id settle for "stop pretending neoliberals are the same as fascists" but something tells me the "less progress than all the progress is worse than negative progress, I'm so smart" people aren't very likely to do that.

Edit: yeah so looking at some of the stuff under here....smh

[–] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Seriously, it's such a naive stance to think that just because progress didn't arrive hand delivered to your doorstep gift-wrapped with a bow on top exactly the way you imagined, then it's not worth having. What a ridiculous idea. Progress is progress. Every little step brings us closer to the next step. Demanding perfection all at once is going to get us exactly nowhere.

Stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (12 children)

I've been voting regularly for 20 years and I've yet to see real progress on issues I care about. I still vote because it makes for a good example of how our system of government is crap.

[–] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I've been voting regularly for 20 years and the ACA was a massive move in the correct direction...until Republicans gutted the individual mandate and refused federal funds for Medicaid expansion. It's always the Republicans ruining any semblance of progress that we make. I find Dems most guilty of trusting SCOTUS to do their jobs for them.

I want to see Dems again get a solid, undeniable majority in both chambers in 2024. Then push the priority passage of voting rights and anti-gerrymandering legislation. Those are concrete fixes to the system.

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Even with the ACA I'm too afraid to use my health insurance lest I go bankrupt. I fell and hit my head and the ER bill, even with "good" insurance, was over $3,000. I would have been better off if I set my nose and sealed the cut with super glue myself. I'm paying $600 a month for insurance I can't use without going bankrupt.

Health care is still broken after the ACA, and will continue to be broken until we get rid of the rent-seekers in the health care industry. But Democrats seem to like those folks so I guess I'll just buy my meds from Tractor Supply and invest in a good needle and thread.

[–] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The ACA was only ever meant to be a first step. It was never intended to be the end goal. The Republicans gutting the individual mandate is what stole that momentum because it leaves simply being uninsured as an unfortunately viable financial option for enough people that it reduced pressure to reform the rest of the system.

The end goal is single payer. But it's difficult to the point of bordering on impossible to shift from what we had instantly into single payer in the third most populous country on the planet. It's estimated that single payer will put nearly 400,000 private insurance middle-people out of jobs. That's not a negligible problem. We're going to need a way to address that in the process of making the shift.

The ACA open markets have allowed me to leave jobs that I otherwise would not have been able to leave because I can't afford to go 30-90 days without health insurance. That open market didn't even exist when I was a young adult 20 years ago. Insurance gaps between jobs were simply a fact of life that a lot of people couldn't abide

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am highly doubtful that the end goal is single payer.

[–] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Single payer is the only actually viable option. The more change we make, the more obvious that will become. Probably single payer with private supplementation is where we'll end up because America will never settle for rich people not being able to buy nicer lives than the rest of us.

[–] norbert@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

What are some issues you care about that you've seen no progress on?

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[–] Spitzspot@artemis.camp 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Vote for the Most Progressive

[–] jabib@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago

Upvote. We should always vote for less bad.

[–] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Republican obstructionism is worse than Democrat foot-dragging. Sorry, I know people get frustrated with the lack of progress, but one of those things is clearly a bigger problem than the other.

If a third party revolutionary candidate were actually viable and likely to provide even incremental improvement in the lives of real people, then I'd be on board. But it's not viable. Incremental progress is preferable to no progress or negative progress.

[–] darq@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

But a third party will likely never be viable in within the lifetimes of people alive today, unless the Democrats suddenly decide to overturn FPTP voting.

So understand what you are asking of people. People are more than "frustrated with the lack of progress", they are enraged because they recognise that the current system will NEVER deliver them real justice and dignity. That they will be faced with this exact same situation every single election. And you are asking them to be content living with their rights and well-being on a knife-edge, likely for the rest of their lives. Because while the Democrats won't give them justice, the alternative is fascism.

So you are correct, the Republicans are objectively worse, and people should vote for the most progressive viable candidates possible. But the neoliberal tendency to demand that leftists stop complaining while they give up everything in the name of "compromise", and then tendency to blame leftists for neoliberal losses anyway, is galling.

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