this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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This is more of a question for the admins, but this can certainly be a more open discussion.

Per this thread, beehaw defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works two months ago, around the time that the reddit exodus was happening. Lemmy was blowing up, those instances had an open sign-up policy, and this meant that admins of other instances (like Beehaw) that wanted to heavily moderate their communities became quickly overwhelmed with the number of users from these two instances. Beehaw defederated to make the workload more realistic.

Two months on, I'm wondering if this defederation is still necessary. It seems to me that Lemmy overall has slowed down a lot, and maybe the flow of users from these outside servers would not be as overwhelming as it was before? I respect the decision of the admins one way or the other - I know that the lack of moderation tools was another factor in this decision. I'm just curious if this is something that has been considered recently?

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[–] Ignacio@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I spend most of the time on Kbin, sometimes lurking and sometimes commenting on different posts.

I can't talk about sh.itjust.works because I rarely see content from that instance. Sometimes a meme, or sometimes a techie news post. But very rarely, as I said. If you stay federated or defederated with sh.itjust.works, I don't really care, because I don't really know that place or the content it's published there.

However, I strongly prefer to stay defederated from lemmy.world. I really can't understand why an instance with the .world domain is so US-centric. I don't give a shit about Iowa, Idaho, Florida, Montana, Texas, California or whatever posts from related communites I see while browsing all on Kbin. Besides, being myself anti-nazi, anti-fascist and anti-tankie, I support when other instances defederate from far-right and far-left instances, but I don't understand why they defederate instantly from certain instances and take some time to defederate from other certain instances. It's sad, but lemmy.world is the most similar thing to reddit right now, and it seems that they want to monopolize everything, because there are communities on other instances, as well as on Kbin, that have few activity, if any, in favour of .world ones.

And then there is a cryptic reply to a comment I made on another post.

[–] BarryZuckerkorn@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I really can’t understand why an instance with the .world domain is so US-centric.

Honestly, I think it has a lot to do with a lot of the other popular lemmy instances being specifically oriented around a specific non-US country, so that those of us who are in the US felt deterred from joining the ones that explicitly included ".de" or ".ca" or ".ch" in their domain, with German/Canadian/Swiss stuff in the sidebar.

[–] Ignacio@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

That's why I didn't joint them either. I mean, I could join lemmy.ca because, even being located and focused in Canada, English is used. But feddit.de or feddit.ch, well, I can't talk neither German nor Czech, so you're also right about that.

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[–] BitOneZero@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Given how unstable Lemmy's performance is, adding even more incoming activity is likely to cause more crashes and problems. And it isn't as if there are aren't 1200 other Lemmy instances out there who are showing content from Lemmy.world

I remember when Beehaw's signup code in Lemmy was so broken that there was a huge backlog.

It seems to me that Lemmy overall has slowed down a lot,

That's helped with the crashes in recent weeks, less data, less crashing. Lemmy.world has over 9000 communities, moderating all those entrances is huge, and the SQL performance problems in Lemmy are aggravated by all that additional data.

[–] raptir@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Can someone explain the defederation thing to me? I thought that was "cutting the cord" yet I see people from lemmy.world commenting here.

[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

From where I'm standing, I can't really much has changed unfortunately.. which really sucks..

Lemmy.world has grown substantially meanwhile the moderation tools have not improved at all. All I can say about the moderation tools is that we now know that the tools suck more than they used to.

Here's a list of moderation problems that we have discovered since then:

  • If a Berson is reported on another instance, we never get the report.
  • If a mod is banned from the community they mod, they can still take mod actions
  • If you get site-banned from Beehaw while you are from another instance, you can still post on the community and people from that instance and kbin can see your posts
  • People from other instances can't know who if someone is an admin on the instance they're interacting with
  • People from other instances can't see when we use the shield function to signal we're talking "officially / as a mod"
  • The modlog is not chronological
  • The modlog breaks if you ban someone for more than 4 digit days.
  • A banned user's description is still visible so if they link to a scat image in their description, it is still visible to moderators.

Despite these newly known problems, there have been exactly no improvement whatsoever to the moderation tools. It is honestly unsettling and terrifying.

[–] Janvier@literature.cafe 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I just finished writing a small book in a thread about federation on literature.cafe yesterday, the thrust of which is that moderation, not federation is the threadiverse's killer feature, and when in doubt smaller instances shouldn't federate with larger ones. This list makes a perfect post-script to my point. Do you mind if I crib it? I'm a big fan of what you're doing here. I'd also love your feedback on my observations if you have time.

[–] Antik@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If a mod is banned from the community they mod, they can still take mod actions

Why not remove them as mod? I don't understand why you would keep anyone in the mod team that has been banned from the community?

If you get site-banned from Beehaw while you are from another instance, you can still post on the community and people from that instance and kbin can see your posts

Yes that is a problem with Lemmy in general. But why this only seen as a problem for people from Lemmy World and sh.itjust.works?

The modlog is not chronological

We fix this by having enough admins to go through these reports as soon as possible.

The modlog breaks if you ban someone for more than 4 digit days.

Why ban for 9999 days if you can leave it empty and perma-ban?

Anyway, I agreed that there are a lot of issues that haven't improved, but at least I heard that users will be able to block instances themselves soon so fingers crossed. But Beehaw defederated from Lemmy.World and sh.itjust.works very early on and in the meantime they are federated with instances that are as big as Lemmy.World was back then.

[–] Lionir@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Why not remove them as mod? I don’t understand why you would keep anyone in the mod team that has been banned from the community?

Oversight - that simple.

Yes that is a problem with Lemmy in general. But why this only seen as a problem for people from Lemmy World and sh.itjust.works?

That is not actually a problem with Lemmy in general - community bans do block posting unlike site bans. As for why, well, it was done at that point in time because Lemmy.World and Sh.it just.works took a lot of moderation time - for one reason or another, bad actors liked to go there. I have no reason to believe this has changed now that .World is now many times bigger than it was.

Why ban for 9999 days if you can leave it empty and perma-ban?

Oversight or malice. You can break the modlog of everyone you're federated with because of this - that is dangerous.

But Beehaw defederated from Lemmy.World and sh.itjust.works very early on and in the meantime they are federated with instances that are as big as Lemmy.World was back then.

Size doesn't necessarily mean problems though. I think it's probably a culture problem as the root cause but I don't think .World wants to tackle that problem so all I can do is wait for better tools.

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