Oracle weighing in on anything open source related is peak hypocrisy. Fuck Oracle. They're not our friends.
this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2023
157 points (95.4% liked)
Linux
47342 readers
1311 users here now
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
Rules
- Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.
- No misinformation
- No NSFW content
- No hate speech, bigotry, etc
Related Communities
Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
I had to read that again as I thought it was someone telling that to Oracle, which would make WAY more sense.
Yeah seriously. It's in their best interests to continue to ride on top of Redhat's work. Do not believe for a second that if they were in Redhat's position, they wouldn't do the exact same thing.
As much as I dislike Oracle, they've been pretty good stewards of the Java open source project, and haven't had any issues with anyone else rebadging the JDK, whether it be Zulu, BellSoft, Amazon, Microsoft, SAP, IBM, etc.
If anything, I'd like to see them put their money where their mouth is and hire Linux devs to continue Oracle Linux in an open manner.
they’ve been pretty good stewards of the Java open source project
I am pretty sure Google (the company itself) would say otherwise.
They've also been pretty horrible stewards of VirtualBox.
Oracle is not friends with open source. To be honest, I trust RedHat over Oracle and that's saying something.
Anybody that thinks Oracle has been good stewards of the open source community, is completely whacked. They have not. I'll trust RH over Oracle as well.
Oh wow, I had blocked out the virtual box guest additions debacle/shake-down from my memory. It almost felt like entrapment, the way they went about it.
I'm out of the loop here, what happened?
VirtualBox is free and open source, the windows guest additions piece is not. However, they're both available for free download from the same site and they do not make any distinction between those two (at least at the time, haven't looked). They were waiting for companies to download the guest additions piece and going after them to shake down licensing fees. While I don't recall/know exactly, it seemed like they were almost exclusively going after companies they already had commercial relationships with to add more licensing fees to existing contracts. So yes, from my perspective they were shaking down customers after trying to entrap them with ambiguous free downloads. They had the legal right to do so, but it felt in bad faith.
If anything, I’d like to see them put their money where their mouth is and hire Linux devs to continue Oracle Linux in an open manner.
Oracle Linux is already open: https://yum.oracle.com/. ISOs and full sources are freely downloadable, you don't even need to create an account, and the Oracle Linux license explicitly states that you retain all your open source rights to any open source software distributed as part of Oracle Linux. I suppose it would be possible for Oracle to change their license to make it more akin to Red Hat's and thus make Oracle Linux less free, but there's been no sign of Oracle looking to do that.
Oracle also definitely has lots of Linux devs. They even throw some shade at IBM in the post:
By the way, if you are a Linux developer who disagrees with IBM’s actions and you believe in Linux freedom the way we do, we are hiring.
They need those Linux devs because all of Oracle Cloud and Oracle Exadata are built on Oracle Linux, and Oracle tests their main cash cow Oracle Database exclusively on Oracle Linux. I think that last point is actually the reason that Oracle Linux even exists. I don't think Oracle cares too much about owning the OS layer, they want to be able to support their Database product on an OS that the majority of their customers are using without having to pay a tax to the OS vendor.
I also work on a product that has to interoperate with RHEL, and I also want my company to be able to test our product without having to pay a tax to Red Hat. I'm quite happy to see this blog post from Oracle because it shows that our aims are aligned and it means we've got an 800 lb. gorilla on our side of the line. Entirely possible Oracle could turn around and do the same things, but I've got no compunctions about cheering them on while our aims coincide.
You can on CentOS Stream.. it's the Red Hat upstream, but it is same as RHEL to be a testing ground...
Oracle is shit because they use Red Hat works, providing contract on top of it... and only add UEK as .... "better option" ...
They (oracle) do contribute some on mainline kernel, but by making RHEL copy paste and only add UEK and their product.. ugh... I don't know.
Oracle is shit because they use Red Hat works, providing contract on top of it… and only add UEK as … “better option” …
That's something they were allowed to do. It's something everyone was allowed to do. FOSS means free and open source for everyone, even people and organizations you don't like. Otherwise it's not really free (as in freedom), now is it?
Also, the "contract on top of it" is this license, which is a pretty short read. In my view it's a very inoffensive license compared to Red Hat's coercive license.
Also also, they're forking Oracle Linux from RHEL as of 9.3, so they're won't be "taking" from Red Hat in future anyhow.
They (oracle) do contribute some on mainline kernel, but by making RHEL copy paste and only add UEK and their product… ugh… I don’t know.
It drives me nuts when I see people imply that Oracle was somehow "stealing" from Red Hat by creating a downstream distro. It's not theft when the thing being taken was free and open source! So Oracle copy-pasted RHEL, made some changes and redistributed it. So what? That's something everyone was allowed to do, as long as they didn't violate the open source license while doing it. Oracle isn't violating the open source licenses, the sources are freely available, so why should I fault them for doing what they did?
I think you're also overlooking how much Oracle Linux actually benefited Red Hat themselves. By making Oracle Linux a downstream distro and testing all the Oracle software on it, I'd argue that Oracle actually made RHEL more valuable by increasing the number of enterprise workloads RHEL could support. Yes, a customer could theoretically get support from Oracle instead of Red Hat, but hardly anyone actually did that. I see real-world Oracle Database installs every day and the majority of them are on Red Hat Enterprise Linux proper. Very few are on a downstream. Every one of those RHEL installs is a paying Red Hat customer.
Oracle didn't do all that out of the goodness of their hearts of course, they did it because their customers wanted to standardize on one OS and Oracle wanted to sell them database (and other) software. They did it for profit, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Both Oracle and Red Hat profited from that arrangement. Every enterprise Linux user indirectly benefited from the arrangement too, because it meant there was a less fragmented OS ecosystem to build on! But now Red Hat wants to alter the deal, Vader-style, Oracle is forking Oracle Linux, and you know who loses the most in all of this? All of those users who previously enjoyed the benefit of a less fragmented enterprise OS landscape, myself among them. As far I'm concerned, the blame for that lies squarely at Red Hat's feet.
load more comments
(5 replies)
Even ORACLE is calling out Red Hat.
Who's next, Apple?
Currently testing Debian in a VM, I have lots of files so I need to set everything straight before I switch.
Not because Oracle likes open source, but because they like to profit from RedHat's hard work.
load more comments
(7 replies)
This is hilarious considering one of the main reasons IBM is clamping down on RHEL is because they are literally taking RHEL, changed the stickers to "Oracle" and calls it a day to sell their own propietary shit. Of course they are against RedHat closing down RHEL, they need it to compile Oracle Linux.
I don't like what RedHat is doing (or IBM, however you want to see it) but cheering for Oracle on this particular issue is just wrong
What I don't understand is: who is using oracle linux? Never heard of a single person or company using it?
One must be really far from linux to choose oracle linux among hundreds of available distros
Anyone who uses Oracle Cloud is either directly or indirectly using Oracle Linux. Oracle Cloud is ~2% of the cloud market, so it's small compared to the big three (AWS ~32%, Azure ~23%, GCP ~10% according to this report) but 2% of a very big market (~$237 billion total estimated for 2023) is still a significant user base.
From my own work, most of the Oracle Cloud adoption I see appears to be driven by favourable prices for Exadata Cloud as compared to purchasing on-prem Exadata hardware. Oracle Linux is also baked into Exadata "Cloud-at-Customer", which has essentially the same cloud control plane but the hardware and all data lives on-prem at the customer's site. That seems fairly popular with customers who want Exadata performance but can't allow their data to leave their premises for security reasons.
I am happy I don't have anything to do with oracle...
Believe me, there are certainly days when I wish I didn't have anything to do with Oracle. 🙃
Mostly their Oracle Database customers (which aren't few), I suppose. There are many which will fire up a Oracle Linux vm on their servers to install Oracle database, mostly because its "easier" and Oracle gives some support for those.
A lot of company behind the scence do, with Oracle DB... even there are RHEL, they opt to use OL because it's free, and they only need to pay the DB License..
Free estate
What I don't understand is: who is using oracle linux? Never heard of a single person or company using it?
One must be really far from linux to choose oracle linux among hundreds of available distros
One must be really far from linux to choose oracle linux among hundreds of available distros
Not really a choice when the products they sell (their database/cloud solutions) are tied to it or RHEL. But yeah, I doubt there's many who'd call it their favorite distro
If you're using a software suite that requires Oracle Database, it and RHEL are safe options. It's used where I work for that reason, but only relating to said software. This vendor only officially supports those 2 distros, and to a lesser extent Windows.
Pathetic wretches who couldn't escape Oracle's clutches, mostly.
My company was starting to use OEL extensively over the past few months.
Now now, calling Oracle a downstream RHEL is straight up lying. We need sincere comments.
What I don't understand is: who is using oracle linux? Never heard of a single person or company using it?
One must be really far from linux to choose oracle linux among hundreds of available distros
If they are so keen on GPL, why dont they re license ZFS from its current GPL clashing license that stops it from getting Integrated into Linux kernel source code...
Cheering for Oracle is certainly an unexpected turn of events, but here we are. They are absolutely right that ~~RedHat~~IBM’s motivations are simply to kill competition and obtain vendor lock-in by ending RHEL compatibility. RedHat is truly dead.
Cheering for Oracle is certainly an unexpected turn of events, but here we are.
Oracle is literally freeloading RHEL without giving anything back. If they were an active Fedora and CentOS contributor, I would have sympathy but they are not.
RedHat is truly dead.
Red Hat is (at the moment at least) still the biggest FOSS supporter around. Oracle's behavior makes clear that they have absolutely no interest in picking up contributions in upstream FOSS community projects.
lol "competition". Oracle doesn't contribute 1/10th that Red Hat does to open source. This whole controversy is BECAUSE of Oracle copying Red Hat's homework with OEL. Now they are pissed because they can't have a free lunch anymore at Red Hat's expense.
From a practical standpoint, we believe Oracle Linux will remain as compatible as it has always been through release 9.2, but after that, there may be a greater chance for a compatibility issue to arise. If an incompatibility does affect a customer or ISV, Oracle will work to remediate the problem.
This is the part of the post I find most interesting. Looks like Oracle won't be engaging in whatever workarounds Rocky Linux and AlmaLinux are using to continue operating as downstream distros of RHEL. Instead, if I'm reading this correctly it means Oracle Linux will essentially be forking from RHEL past 9.2. There were essentially three options before Oracle when Red Hat made their license change:
- Pay Red Hat for RHEL licenses. Lol as if, Larry Ellison didn't become a billionaire by spending money he didn't need to.
- Use whatever workarounds to remain a downstream distro and pay Red Hat nothing, while using their army of lawyers to fend off any ensuing lawsuits from Red Hat / IBM. It's not like they couldn't afford to fight the case after all.
- Fork from Red Hat.
That they've chosen the third options is kind of fascinating to me, and to understand why you'd probably need to understand how enterprise database support works. The Oracle databases I see day to day are massive, and they drive practically all of a company's core operations. Unanticipated downtime is fucking expensive, so these companies are willing to pay a lot for top-tier support (not like I think Oracle Support is actually good, mind you, but that's a whole other topic). The DBAs running these databases don't want to deal with any headaches whatsoever, so they're only going to install Oracle on approved operating systems. They can't afford to have Oracle say "nope, sorry, unsupported platform" during an outage.
For a couple decades now, the supported Linux platforms for Oracle Database have been RHEL, SLES and Oracle Linux. Obviously Oracle Linux will remain on that list, and I doubt SLES is going anywhere either (it tends to be popular in Europe), but does RHEL drop off the list in future? Does Oracle think they can actually convert RHEL installs to Oracle Linux installs at customer sites? Or does RHEL stay on the list but become the red-headed step-child? Either way, this feels like an attempt by Oracle to erode the value of Red Hat's platform. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Frankly as a layman I don't see any other reason than Oracle DB support to not just use good old Debian and forget about this licencing bullshit.
Finally, to IBM, here’s a big idea for you. You say that you don’t want to pay all those RHEL developers? Here’s how you can save money: just pull from us. Become a downstream distributor of Oracle Linux. We will happily take on the burden.
We live in a weird reality lol
Learn to never trust a corporation, no matter how "good" they are. Corporations exist for profit only, that is the only reason why they exist and function.
I'll never use an Oracle product and IBM is a soulless corporation. Debian is a much better product anyway but they're missing some of the really good enterprise features that Red Hat has. I hope at some point they have solutions for Satellite and IDM.
While oracle has definitely always been... problematic, it is refreshing to see something actually written by a real, rational person. It may just be corporate fodder, but it's good for people in this case, something very rare - just like SUSE's not-so-subtle PR statements.
Screw RH.
Sure, corporations gonna corporate, capitalism sucks...
But I felt this article was written in a sincere spirit to keep Linux open and multiparty. There are obviously many more reasons for such a sentiment than just the natural urge to undress and smoke up (I know, puzzles me too). However in these times of often direct aggression to anything I know and love I welcomed it a sight for sour eyes.
Even ORACLE is calling out Red Hat.
Who's next, Apple?
Currently testing Debian in a VM, I have lots of files so I need to set everything straight before I switch.
view more: next ›