Gloomy

Okay, I'll not downvotes but try to engage.

The right I activly holding back information from their echo chamber that can objectively view as factual (climate change is the most prominent example that comes to mind). So they are indeed ignoring reality in a messuarable way. Why do you think the right is not perseved as a thread then? For example the thread of ignoring climate change or science in general? Do you think "the middle" doesn't see that as a problem?

How, in your option has the left removed itself from reality? Can you provide some concrete examples please?

I can think of examples for the silencing both on the right or the left. In regards to the left I'm thinking of speakers at university's beeing canceled or yelled over. And I do see how speach controll might be seen as silencing. Is it a thing? Where I am from it seems to be more of a right wing point pretending that they are speach-controlled while nobody is forcing speech on anybody, just suggesting more inclusive ways of speaking (let's use pronouns as an example).

So I guess what I am saying is: Is the perception of the left grounded in reality or has it been crafted by right wing propaganda? And since the answer has to be "yes to both", do you think it's more grounded in reality than it is constructed by the right?

That's a very low bar.

I'll show myfself out.

Racist!

Shut the fuck up, you take that back right now bitch.

Come to Lemmy, where the left can still be found in all its unhinged glory. We have Eat-the-Rich-Mondays, Threaten-a-Tankie-Thursdays and Wine-about-Windows-Wednesdays.

Absolutely. I try to counter it by beeing aware and checking M opinions against facts where possible. But I am sure there are many topics where I don't fully succeed or I haven't caught myself doing it yet.

I honestly don't see how I am or was screaming at you and u apologise if it came across as such. You are stating your opinion, which you indeed are entitled too. I am stating why I disagree. I am not attacking you as a person, or trying to belittle you for it. I simply don't think it beneficial (for the left) to hold the view you have stated without evidence.

Trump is a con man and a liar, absolutely. But for pulling of something on this scale it needs way, way more than one person. And all of them would have to hold tight, no leaks what so ever. That just doesn't sound realistic to me. I do hold the view hat we should base our opinions in fact, not speculation. I don't mean this as an attack. Ist just my view.

I am also not accusing you or anyone of beeing in cult.

I said it before to another person here, I'll say it again: I understand how you, how we all are angry, hurt, devasted even after this election. I share those emotions very much.

I still don't think we should copy the behaviour of the other side. I know you feel justified in your option. So do they. That doesn't make it more or less true though. Cult like would leave no room for discussion what so ever tough. I think we have that room, and are engaging in it right now. I think indeed the very fact that we are able to exchange opinions on this shows how this is very much not a cult.

One person is not a conspiracy theory

Sure, but you are not the only person here, who is taking that narrative.

Sure Trump is a fucking Bastard. But we hit quite hard on the right for speeding their conspiracy "stolen election" shit in 2020. I just don't think it's sensible to turn that around. With clear cut evidence: sure thing. But just making the accusation... Na, not so much.

That's fair, and I'm sorry to have been an asshole about it.

No worries. We all have to cope with this some way or another and sometimes that mean beeing a bit of an asshole. I don't take it personal, I understand where you are coming from.

I question the fact that nearly 1 in 2 Latino voters voted to deport themselves

Latin are a conservative bunch by nature. Many of the progressiv view the left hold, regarding for example masculinity and feminism, stand in contrast to their culture. (This is a very broad statement that does not aplly to all Lations!) And many think that it's not going to be them that will be deported, it will he those Mexican drug smugglers. Which is a delusional view to hold, in my opinion. Same fore for queer folk voting red. But it is want it is and the data we have from polling and voting do add up in regards to Lations.

I find it difficult to believe that 15+ million other voters who showed up to vote for Joe Biden, didn't show up to vote for Harris.

Yes, that's hard to swallow, I agree. Maybe it's because the last vote happened with Corona in the backdrop? Maybe Trumps many Errors where much more fresh on the mind of so many. Maybe inflation kept people from trusting the Democrats. Maybe some just won't vote for a female. Or a black person. Or, god forbid, both. Lots of possible reasons. I do think we should try to understand them and filter them on in the future.

This is the most politicized election we've had in over a century, nobody didn't hear about this.

Yes, but that means you also listen to 2 party's accusing one another of beeing the devil / literaly Hitler for one year plus. I see how people who are not that interested in politics can get numb to this.

because by the time I woke up after election night everyone had already decided none of the Dems showed up and Trump had won, when according to gov websites the final vote tally and certification isn't even until mid December.

This realy sound exactly what republicans said in 2020.

I've never seen election results get called so early that I can remember.

That's because they were realy very obvious this time. It didn't come down to just a couple of votes in swingstates like in 2020.

According to this 2016, 2012 and 2008 where called on simular schedules or earlier. 2020 was an outline because of the amount of mail in votes.

I saw three different news stories about conservatives setting ballot boxes on fire. Our gerrymandering maps are so bad they can be confused for TV static from a distance. Millions of people had their voting registration purged by state level conservatives weeks or days before the election.

All of there are fair points, and they should be handled in two ways: Take evidence to the courts where illegal things happend. And try to change the system where fraud has been made legal.

Regarding both points i think it is a very real possibility that the window to deal with them is past and the Trump administration will solidify and widen them. This might have been our last fair election.

My only hope is that it goes like last time and they are at each other's throuts for 4 years or just to incompetent to do to much that has lasting damaged. But I'm not betting on that. I think this time they will come prepared. And it will be the end of America as it is now.

Ah yes, it's exactly the same with no differences,

Not what I said.

surely Trump isn't known to be a cheat and a liar

I think it need more than one person to cheat on this scale, no?

Surely he hasn't stated publicly his intentions to cheat the election.

He hasn't. He said they need no more votes. You are taking thins one thing he said and pretending it's "intention to cheat the election.". Which is simply not true. It could also mean that he is sure he will win, because he thinks he has got all the states he needs on his side. I'm sure there are more interpretations. But that's all it is.

No, he's a perfect human being

Never said that.

we're all just shouting about voter fraud because we're stupid.

Never said that. Your angry, hurt, what ever. Emotional. And I understand that. I'm absolutely devasted by this shit. And I see how one might jump to conspiracy thinking in such a situation. I just don't think it helps, so I'll call it what it is. Not to attack you, as a person, or to call you names. Just because I don't think it's helpful.

I think we (as in "the left") should try to base our opinions on facts and not repeat the shit the right is doing all the time, throwing baseless accusations around.

Ah, so now it's time for baseless accusations from our side, yes?

As long as there is no proof this is as much a conspiration theory as the the bullshit the right was spewing about in 2020.

No, not true. They are saying that this time they knew to watch close, so the Democrats couldn't pull of the same fraud as 2020. They are indeed stating that it is "supisious" that 13 Million Democratic voices where nowhere to be seen this time around, taking that as proof they were right all along.

That's how this works. You take reality and then make it mean what you want it to mean. So that's their take in regards to voter fraud.