Remaking as title wasn't phrased as a question (technically correct mod, best kind of correct).
So, having the abortion debate with a friend I’ve known for 10 years. He got sucked into the right wing Youtube algorithms in the last few years, we were roommates when it first started and it made me roll my eyes. Morally, I’m not going to be able to change his mind about valuing life at conception, vs my perspective of valuing human consciousness being the determining philosophical perspective. I’m of the belief it is morally wrong to abort a fetus at the point that relevant experts consider the baby “conscious”. So somewhere in the 2nd trimester. His mother started and owned her own defense/immigration law firm for 20 years, so he is familiar with how debate is supposed to be done. I am good friends with his mother, and after he debated her about it, she did change her mind from being staunchly pro choice to being more neutral on the topic. I haven’t asked her yet what he brought up that changed her mind.
However, to my knowledge, that doesn’t even matter. Abortion restrictions/bans are just, flat out ineffective policy. From my research, total abortion bans in the US were accompanied with contraceptive access being decreased, so using increased birthrates in red American states as evidence that less total abortions were happening is questionable.
He brought up Poland and a couple other Euro countries restricting abortion, and specifically in Poland legal abortions fell by 90% (exceptions in the case of mothers dying). However, ofc finding reliable stats for illegal abortion rates in such countries is going to be difficult. In addition to that, women in Poland and other European countries, are able to just travel to neighboring countries to get abortions (I believe, I haven’t seen mention of American style persecutions of those seeking care across borders).
His logic with the South American statistics I could find, the continent with the most total abortion bans was that despite them having x3 the abortion rates as developed countries with abortion being legal, he disregarded that as “they don’t have effective enforcement mechanisms”, and wanted to stick to developed countries. This is another example of determining the data/studies reliability seems... difficult, as I am not a statistician, and trying to find good data on illegal activities seems rough, though I am sure there are metrics to do so. I can provide my sources if requested if you guys are interested in taking a look.
These are the claims I am trying to prove:
“You inherently can’t have well enforced total abortion bans without infringing on women’s rights, to do so you have to treat women like second class citizens. In addition, total abortion bans are harmful to society as a whole in regards to maternal health outcomes and not actually accomplishing the goal of reducing the rate fetuses are killed at. I think the pro life movement has been pushed by either religious organizations, or nefarious, hostile to American democracy entities who have geopolitical goals in mind (ie, paralyzing American democracy with polarizing moral wedge issues).”
I figured Lemmy has probably had similar conversations in the past, and that you guys might have some helpful academic resources or arguments to point me towards. I’m trying to focus on the “the data shows this is garbage policy if what you care about (which he claims he does) is the optimal outcome for the most unborn fetuses and mothers, unless your goal is the cruelty, to be the sex police and trying to control women, then it totally makes sense to be doing what Republicans in America have been doing” angle. He claims for him it’s not about punishing women, it is about the potential lives being erased. The leader of the pro life movement in Poland said for them, it’s about upping native Polish birthrates, with him blaming ‘young women going out and drinking’ on falling birthrates. After the abortion ban in Poland, birthrates fell by 11%, making them the worst in Europe.
Anyways, if you guys have relevant data you’d like to share, would save me a lot of time, thanks! The dude claimed to be a “non religious abortion abolitionist”, so an extreme pro lifer. That shit pissed me, because he thinks he is in the moral minority that future generations will think were in the right, and instead he’s a fuckin’ part of the problem. I know data and statistics are a tricky thing to be definitive with :|
Edit: here are some sources I'm going to use. Will keep adding as I get time.
Study on countries with abortion bans having roughly the same rates of abortion as countries with few restrictions:
Ah man you beat me to the Gollum reference