If only there was some other technology that came along that could :(
makeasnek
joined 1 year ago
Your other points aren’t really valid if you ever want to convert Bitcoin to something that isn’t Bitcoin
A. I don't, I'd rather use Bitcoin for everything. Year after year, for fifteen years, that has gotten easier as the network has continued to grow and exchange rate stability has increased.
B. Then it would equally apply to Monero or any other cryptocurrency
Bitcoin lightning changes Bitcoin's whole privacy situation. Lightning transactions don't go on chain and confirm in under a second for pennies in fees.
so things like having control of your money, needing ID, and trusting centralized entities (sure, exchanges plural) are a huge part of Bitcoin.
I believe you mean a huge part of the existing banking system and markets. None of that is Bitcoin, Bitcoin can operate just fine without any of it.
CBDCs are coming whether you like it or not and a GNU Taler based payment system is currently our best mitigation strategy against them.
The best mitigation strategy is to refuse to use them and to point out when systems, like Taler, are actively working to further their introduction of use. Using your national currency is mandatory to pay taxes, it's not mandatory for anything else in most countries. We have the option to opt out, just like we do with every other privacy-attacking technology. Assuming it's inevitable is how they win.
You people realize that most crypto is even less private? Every transaction ever can be viewed by everyone, forever, by design.
There's some truth to this but it's also not really the case.
- Each address is pseudononymous even in original Bitcoin.
- Bitcoin lightning transactions are completely opaque to the network, they are never on-chain. At this point, there are vastly more transactions on lightning than on-chain. They confirm instantly and are known only to your node, the receiver's wallet, and intermediary nodes (if any). Lightning inherits security from the main chain while giving you sub-second transaction confirmation times.
- Monero exists, coinjoin (Bitcoin) exist, changing addresses and having multiple wallets exists, liquidity swaps exist. The chain analysis game is getting harder and more complex every year.
tbh this should be pinned
Bitcoin solved the "move money from A to B securely, internationally, quickly" problem 15 years ago. Taler strikes me in the most generous terms as a new attempt as an unimaginative effort to re-envision the banking system that existed before that watershed moment. We have instant, international settlement, we have that technology, it's here, it's mature, it works, it continues to get better, it has a market cap higher than Sweden's GDP, and the average long-term trend has been growth no matter what way you slice it. It's already more widely used and reliable than most national currencies. And it solves the delivery problem.
Taler is explicitly positioning itself as a better international payment standard to prevent central bank digital currencies from taking that role
From the Taler FAQ:
The exchange would be operated by a bank or in cooperation with a bank, and that bank would hold the funds in escrow respectively on an internal settlement account. Note that this bank could be a regular bank or a central bank for a central bank digital currency. Irrespective of this, the bank would fall under the relevant financial services regulations, which is one reason why consumers can rely on the conversion of Taler coins into normal bank money.
That doesn't sound like opposing a CBDC to me, it sounds like explicitly building infrastructure for its existence. To review, Taler is
- Money I don't control (held by another entity) of a money supply I don't control (can be printed at will by government)
- That can't be used internationally
- That is funded/sponsored by the EU, which wants to push a CBDC
- That has built in support for the concept of money expiration
You ever wonder why GNU Taler for some reason seems to be everywhere? Seems to have like advertising money to be everywhere, unlike basically every other GNU project? Because it's a backdoor to a central bank digital currency (CBDC) which will be one of the greatest threats to personal liberty and freedom in our lifetime. That's why you'll see "Funded by the EU" and a host of banks listed on their funders page. You know, the same EU that wants chat control.
Money you can only spend certain places? A CBDC can do that! Money that expires if you don't spend it fast enough? A CBDC can do that! Money that can disappear if you decide to be a dissident? A CBDC can do that too! But don't take my word for it, ask Taler's FAQ:
Taler e-money is issued with a validity period. One month before the expiration date, you wallet should automatically exchange any digital cash that is about to expire for new digital cash with an extended validity period. However, if your wallet is offline for an extended period of time, it may be unable to do so. Ensure your wallet is regularly online to avoid losing money due to expiration!
We believe the European Electronic Money Directive provides part of the regulatory framework a Taler exchange with coins denominated in Euros would have to follow.
Oh, and it doesn't work for international transfers either. And it's going above and beyond to make sure you're only "private" under certain conditions:
As a payment system must comply with local laws in order to operate legally, GNU Taler must be designed to comply with these requirements. GNU Taler must provide an audit trail for investigators operating under the law. Furthermore, we consider levying of taxes as beneficial to society, and fair taxation requires income transparency. Thus, GNU Taler must enable authorities to track income.
Weird. I didn't see anything in the Bitcoin source code about that, but apparently Taler thinks it's their moral responsibility to make sure the authorities have total financial surveillance over their subjects. Taler, in this description, offers less privacy than cash or even a typical bank account. And it gets worse, even small transactions between friends are monitored:
Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
How about, no? How about me paying 50 to a guy for fixing my bike doesn't need to be intermediaried and KYCed? How about it's none of the government's business how I split the bill at dinner with friends? This level of surveillance is madness.
And their FAQ deliberately spreads FUD about Bitcoin. From their FAQ
It would be possible, however, to withdraw coins denominated in Bitcoin into a Taler wallet (with an appropriate exchange), which would give some benefits over plain Bitcoin, such as instant confirmation times.
Wrong. Fud. Bitcoin lightning offers instant confirmation times, fully settled, instant confirmation times. Taler isn't self-custody. Putting Bitcoin in a taler wallet means trusting Taler and co not to rug you, no thanks. Taler isn't international, Taler requires KYC to use, it's worse than cash. Unlike Taler, your Bitcoin can't be programmed by the government to "expire" if you don't use your public assistance or wages in time. We all have to do our part to keep the economy going!
GNU Taler seems like the final pleas of a desperate soon-to-be-ex, "I'll stop, I promise! I'll do better this time, I'll even give you some privacy! Just don't leave!". But it's not about the privacy, is it? Really? It's about the lack of trust, the lack of sovereignty. People have lost trust in governing institutions, they have seen the value of their currency inflated away no matter which party is in charge, they have seen massive privacy violations again and again, they have seen the slow but steady creep of authoritarianism and state control over our lives, they have had to fight EU chat control year after year, and they are opting out of these systems through decentralized, trustless alternatives. The beauty of Taler, of course, from the perspective of the state, is that it enables these system to provide us with "privacy" while still maintaining total state control and centralization. Decentralized identity credentials are the future, not centralized ones. Decentralized currencies are the future, not centralized ones. The future is here, and this is the last gasp of a dying system trying to keep you ensnared in its web of control.
Final overview:
- International transactions to anywhere on earth? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Money that doesn't expire? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Wallet can safely go offline without losing funds due to expiration? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Money you can use even if you are a dissident and the govt wants to shut down your account? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Fully self-custody? You control the money, not anybody else? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- 100% FOSS? Anybody can run a node/be a full network participant? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler (must be approved by govt)
- Can be used without trusting a centralized entity? ✅Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Will work even if EU government collapses or your country gets kicked out? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- High degree of privacy (when used properly)? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Instant settlement? ✅ Bitcoin ✅ Taler
- Known, auditable supply which can't be manipulated by money printing or a 2-3% "inflation target"? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Able to use without providing ID? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
- Not part of financial surveillance infrastructure wet dream that EU wants? ✅ Bitcoin ❌ Taler
Anonymity is also crucial for democracy. Anonymity is required for sources to leak material to the press about corruption and malfeasance. Anonymity is required for people to speak honestly and freely. When the government turns against its critics, anonymity is required for those critics to speak safely.
You can still investigate crimes without eliminating the right to privacy or anonymity. It requires talking to people, finding witnesses, and doing good old detective work. The simple fact of the matter is that police have more tools today to fight crime than they ever have in human history. All of our communications, our phones and CCTV tracking our every move, etc yet crime still happens. Most crimes go uninvestigated and unprosecuted despite this wealth of invasive access. The reason for this is either lack of will or lack of resources, but it surely isn't lack of access. We were told if we traded our privacy and liberties we would be safe from crime, but the truth is that criminals will still crime and rich and powerful people will still get away with crime. The only difference now is that we lost our freedom and privacy along the way. And every day, we are told we need to give up even more freedom and then really, truly, the system will find those bad guys and eliminate them. Except the bad guys are often the ones who run and benefit most from the system. And they've gone so far to convince much of the population that doing things privately (like making transactions) is in and of itself a sign of criminal behavior or intent.
People 100 years ago in the US would scoff at the idea that the government would be able to monitor every financial transaction they made or read all their mail. Yet all day I see people in these comments saying how this is normal, needed even, for society to operate well.
No, you may have to re-login every time you connect, but once you connect, your MAC would be stable for that session.
How has the purchasing power of your USD held up over the last 5 years? Because BTC has done pretty damned well. And your BTC still represents the same portion of supply as it always did. BTC is already more widely used and more stable than most national currencies. Unlike fiat currency, it isn't designed to lose value over time to inflation of the supply.
Here's how much USD, Gold, and BTC it takes to buy a house in the US over time.
Yes absolutely, because any time the government can increase surveillance and control, they will. The Pirate Party is one of the few political forces in the EU fighting hard against this. Central Bank Digital Currencies will be the biggest threat to individual liberty and privacy we see in our lifetimes. In a time of global instability, these threats to our freedoms continue to compound from all over the political spectrum. People are more willing to accept some loss in freedom in the promise it will protect them from the "other side" gaining too much power or from worsening economic or other environmental conditions.
Bitcoin is a solution for those who want privacy, money, and autonomy to work hand in hand. Bitcoin offers much more robust privacy than a bank account and the degree of privacy it offers continues to improve. It's not controlled by a central bank, entity, or board of directors who can mess with the supply or have any kind of special access to your financial information. You don't need six forms of ID to use it, in fact, you don't even need one! It's truly autonomous money that separates the role of the state from the role of money.
With Bitcoin, I can send money to anybody anywhere on planet earth with a cell phone and a halfway reliable internet connection in under a second for pennies in fees (using Bitcoin lightning). And I can send that money to anybody even if they have an unstable banking system, no banking system at all (billions of people), or their banking system excludes them due to their gender, sexuality, or status as a political dissident. Venmo can’t do that, Paypal can’t do that, my bank can’t do that, Taler can't do that. It has a clear fiscal policy of a 21 million coin cap. It has faced attacks and attempted bans from nation states and world powers, yet it has reliably performed this function of sending money around for 15 years without a single hour of downtime, without a single hack, without a single bank holiday or failure or any kind. It has a market cap bigger than Sweden’s GDP. It is more widely adopted than most national currencies. It can’t be controlled, debased, or inflated by any corrupt central bank. It actually has use and value. You may not use it, but that doesn’t mean other people don’t get immense use out of it.
Monero is king when it comes to privacy coins though. So from a privacy perspective, that's worth looking into as well. Long-term I think Bitcoin will eat Monero for lunch since it can easily adopt the privacy technologies Monero has and the Bitcoin community is very pro privacy. Monero also lacks an L2 like lightning which means transactions are slower and more expensive and eventually fees will get ridiculous if adoption reaches parity with Bitcoin. Depending on your use case, that may or may not matter.
Bitcoin is already more stable than most national currencies and gets past the issue where you have to trust a central bank to correctly regulate the production of currency. Ask anybody in Argentina, Turkey, or Zimbabwe how much they trust their national currency. You can use Bitcoin as an everyday currency without holding onto it, plenty of people do this, particularly since it's simply better for international transactions than many alternatives. Bitcoin gets more stable with time as more people use it.
All currencies experience volatility. People in some countries are very lucky to have a "stable" currency to use. But due to its inflationary nature, currencies like the EUR and USD are designed to lose value over time. 2-3% per year in good years. How had the purchasing power of that currency held up in recent years? Because Bitcoin has held up pretty well. Volatility has many sources, not all of which can be controlled. Bitcoin fixes the total supply in circulation which helps control at least one of those variables. If I have to pick between a currency that is guaranteed to lose value and a currency which may gain or lose value, the choice is pretty clear to me.
Bitcoin's user base, transaction volume, total market cap, number of full nodes etc, on average trend have increased or improved year after year for 15 years. You can send money to anybody on planet earth with a cell phone and a halfway reliable internet connection in under a second for pennies in fees. And it's as easy to use as Venmo. The dollar can't do that, it needs a crazy complex series of international agreements and banks to make happen and it's expensive and slow. Nobody's making people use Bitcoin, in fact, there are often some hurdles to doing so, but they choose to because they see some value in doing so. But who knows, maybe on year 16 you'll finally be right and people will finally realize it's useless and stop using it!