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I really think it's a personal thing for your happiness right? You seem happy to carry her memory and knowing that's exactly what matters to you. If others need someone around, or that you can share the future moments with, then you aren't lying about it being "forever" if you continue living life, life changes lots of things. Sharing that love with someone is huge, but they also wanted to be with you for it. They can't be, so if someone finds someone else and they want to walk through life together I'd like to think someone can find that.
Some are happy with the memory, and their values hold that they would never involve another. But others know that they needed each other to get through the good and the bad, and that person isn't here anymore. They'll never be the same as the person who is gone, but it doesn't mean having them in your life is a "failure" or "betrayal"
It definitely does to me. It would very literally make many of the things I said lies. Yes, most humans would consider doing that acceptable and understandable, but that honestly makes it worse to me, not better. It seems like the bulk of humanity values their own personal comfort, the happiness or pleasure of the now, and not being stuck alone more than they value the honesty and integrity of words and promises they made that at the time felt like the most important a thing could be.
It changes the primary focus and most important aspect from the bond of love and dedication between two people, to not having to be lonely and go without fucking someone. It seems base, and degrading to anything that should hold true meaning and value.
And that's absolutely a view you are allowed to take. Nobody should force you to "move on" or "go get laid" or look down on you for not doing so. I would however strongly refute that everyone who does find another after losing someone is doing so to "fuck someone new", for a lot of people that move is not one made lightly, and not something so minimally calculated.
But for the people that do make those choices, they are also not lesser or "liars". Life can be very challenging, and connection, especially intimate ones (or lack thereof) can drastically change our feelings and wellness going through life. Some people find that connection on other people and choose to embrace it, others reject it to protect the sanctity of what came before.
I'm not trying to change your mind in either direction but to explain why other people may do what they do. There are several factors that could influence their decisions as well.
Some people don't believe in an afterlife. They believe that when the person is gone, they're gone. They hold memories dear, but they also know that suffering (if they feel that they are) for someone who is no longer here may not be worth the cost to their own wellness.
Some have had more than one experience like that. If I were to refuse to date anyone ever again because my 5 year relationship in highschool and college where we promised we would be together forever ended (for whatever reason). Am I a monster for finding love with another person because at the time I said and believed and truly swore we would be together? What if the separation was out of either of our control?
There's also the aspect you have talked about, which is akin to honor. You have made a vow and promised it until death. You have every right to stand by it and dedicate yourself to it, but not to choose others decisions for them as well.
Holding your oath may be what carries you, but others may need or want further comfort in life. It doesn't have to be sexual, but connection with other people in a way that truly shows them your heart is not something people can often find, and also not something many can just give up on in life.
Take the path that makes you happy, but if someone else's decision means there are two less unhappy people in the world then it's a decision worth making in my opinion.
I'm completely aware that different people have different beliefs. I've already said that I can only live true to mine as best as I can and couldn't force others to adhere to them. I never once said anyone else had to or should live by my personal values and morals.
Long copy/paste since it's the same point. Not everyone will like or agree with everyone or the things they hold most dear. Me openly communicating about my own feelings on issues isn't attacking anyone else.
"The problem you’re having isn’t with any normativity, it’s with tribalism. There’s an awful part of being human that makes us want to be part of a social group and shun the outsider. To decide that those who aren’t with or like us in our beliefs and norms are evil and bad and to be hated. And even worse, when we feel socially and morally justified in hating someone it feels good to vent that anger and hate at them.
It’s two combined evolutionary relics from millions of years of what eventually became humanity. First, through almost all of that time the outsider was dangerous. Food was often scarce, survival was always questionable, and medical care didn’t exist. A group of people you didn’t know could easily become a fight for resources, and even a single clearly friendly unarmed stranger could bring disease and wipe your entire group out.
The second is the social pressure of fitting in. Through almost all of that time being kicked out of your group was likely a death sentence. We can’t seem to shake that inner terror we’re rarely even conscious of about not fitting in. It pushes us to agree with the people we want to be close to or be liked by and to try to emulate the group we’re with.
Combined, those things are awful. People anywhere will always notice someone who seems dramatically different from the area norm, but someone can stand out in a rural region when the only distinction is a slightly different accent. The drive to shun the outsider and to drive to fit in with your known group work together to make it likely that whatever the difference is, the group is likely to treat that different person or group terribly.
Once someone begins it and no one steps up to stop it, it starts to feel acceptable and even right to do it. Pressure to fit in becomes pressure to join in, and the smaller and tighter knit the group is the more difficult it is to deny that and deviate from what now seems to be the norm of our group.
If you hear someone else from your nation make a racist comment to an immigrant it’s not too difficult to step in and say something against it. If they respond back with some angry tirade about how you’re siding with “them” there are good odds you’ll leave it at that and move on, but perhaps you’d become adamant and insist it stop.
On the other end of the spectrum, if you’re spending a day with your closest friends and one of them makes a racist comment to an immigrant it’s much harder to deal with, and even more so if it’s said privately between the group or other members of the group looked entertained or uncaring when it happened. It’s so hard to even bring it up that people typically decide to let it go or debate whether to say anything internally. That pressure makes it really easy to join in with those acts, even when they’re things you really believed were wrong.
The world has over 8 billion people spread among something like 17,000 distinct ethnic groups and cultures, all with varying histories, religions, moralities, and social norms. Aspects of normal behavior to one group is very often considered immoral to another, and at times there are complete contradictions to the point where doing something is immoral and illegal in one place but not doing that same thing is immoral and illegal in another.
When someone sees your beliefs or acts as immoral it’s easy to define that as them being hateful of you. If it’s a group of people it’s easy for them to become hateful of you. And because of that, you’re likely to hate them in return. And you both spew hate at one another, and you both feel good doing it, because you can both tell yourselves that you’re justified and the other person is in the wrong.
You’ll never beat normativity. Macrosociology and cultural evolution show that moral norms such as monogamy or polyamory fail to unify across a population once it grows into the millions of people. And our actual social strata doesn’t extend nearly that far in reality. The highest number of people typically considered able to maintain a cohesive cultural group before they naturally begin to differentiate is only 150. Since people constantly grow and change the norms of any group and culture are always in flux, they’re always going to be there and always changing.
The best solution is simply doing our best to understand that people who have completely different beliefs and morals than us aren’t evil. That it’s great to do our best to live up to our own morals and values, but that it’s not right for us to try to force them onto others. It sounds easy, but in also means not judging others based on our own morals… so it’s extremely difficult.
There are people in the world who consider dog meat part of a normal winter meal. It’s very hard for me to not consider them evil, horrible people. Dogs are furry bundles of pure love who want nothing other than to be near their person and enjoy life together. They don’t see them that way. Seeing that as a cultural difference and not them being evil is tough.
That’s just pets. It’s way harder when it’s something deeply personal to our own life and self. Your example is clearly one of those. It’s likely the biggest and most common. Not just the mononormativity and platonic amatonormativity aspects, but the entirety of who it is and is not considered moral to have sex with and under what conditions. It seems very likely that it’s one of the things the moral differences that so much of humanity feels so strongly about even though there are many different accepted norms around the world is a third evolutionary relic. Survival of the group/society/culture/species is the primary evolutionary imperative, so it makes sense that the acts associated with human reproduction are the ones that so many people have a hard time accepting norms on that are completely unlike their own.
All we can do is try to live up to our own personal beliefs and morals, and struggle to not see those whose norms and morals don’t align with ours as evil. Maybe one day we’ll all be able to succeed in that. But we can at least understand it and keep it in mind so that we can keep ourselves from acting hateful towards those people and hopefully become more willing to try to stop our closest friends from acting hateful as well."
Well said.
Exactly, and that's why I'm saying that she is making a false equivalence. Although I'd say that even if it was just to "fuck someone new", it still wouldn't be as bad as she presents it. She can feel that way, and again, that is respectable and she is within her rights to do so, but her way of expressing it is moralizing and judgmental.
You don't seem to understand. I was reaching for an example to explain the visceral disgust I feel at merely considering myself doing that. Yes, cannibalism is an extreme example. I had to choose an extreme example, because that's what honestly reflect how that thought makes me feel. Had I said "It seems kinda icky" it would be been downplaying it and lying to you.
Why do you care so much that other humans in the world feel that strongly against things you support? Aren't your morals/values/personal beliefs the things you care most about following? Would it make sense to you to have someone who believes it's good to do a thing that you genuinely have an uncontrollable disgust reflex at even considering doing get upset at you for that? It's just your natural response to a thing. It would be like someone getting upset that you get super happy when you see a cat or terrified if you wake up with spiders crawling on your face.
I'm not being moralizing and judgemental. I'm honestly communicating about my own feelings on a big part of that core self, the things that genuinely matter to you in life. You don't have to agree with me or adhere to those things. They're not your things. Other humans living by what means the most to them personally isn't an insult towards you.
This
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
That.
I'm not saying one act is equivalent to another act. Actually equating two different things to be the same is required for something to be a false equivalence.
"Apples are basically just oranges" or "using marijuana is like using heroin" are examples of a false equivalence. Note the important part being that two different things are being considered the same when they are not.
My quote was: "It feels so wrong to both her and anyone I would move on to and such a betrayal of my own personal values that it’s unthinkable to me on the level of cannibalism."
Those are not words saying that dating or remarrying after the death of a spouse is basically the same as cannibalism. If they were than your repeated chant of false equivalence would be true, because I would be falsely equating two very different things as being the same.
The words in that sentence very clearly say that it feels so wrong to me and is such a betrayal of my personal values that it is unthinkable to me on the level of cannibalism.
That's comparing the level of unthinkable that one act holds for me to the level of unthinkable another act holds for me.
I did not compare who different things. I said that (my feelings and how unthinkable it feels to me to consider doing) one thing is as strong as (my feelings and how unthinkable it feels to me to consider doing) another thing.
(My feelings and how unthinkable it feels to me to consider doing) being the thing we're saying is the same in both situations.
Insisting that's a false equivalence is as sensible as claiming someone saying they get equally hungry and excited to see a pizza as they do to see a burger.
If you still don't understand please seek higher learning. Go ask. Have someone read the entirety of it for themselves. They may say I'm annoyed and seem like I'm talking slowly to an infant, which is true and how I feel at this point speaking with you, and so possibly that I might be kind of an ass, but they will also say I'm right.
And I said, the logical structure of that feeling and/or thought is that of a false equivalence. I'm not saying it's bad to feel like that, but that's logically incorrect. You're still comparing something with something distinct, even if it's at the feeling or thought level.
Maybe I'm the one wrong here trying to rationalize or analyze by logical means something like beliefs or feelings, but I prefer going to that extreme rather to the opposite one.
A person's feeling of revulsions considering two distinct things is still one single thing. It's their feeling of revulsion. Saying the feeling of revulsion towards one distinct thing is the same as the feeling of revulsion towards another distinct thing is not saying those distinct things are the same, it is saying that feeling of revulsion is the same. Which it is.
It's not a complicated thing. Please if you still cannot understand it, go speak to someone else about it. Go to any of those big places where lots of education takes place, talk to one of the people that have a lot of debts dealing with words and/ or logic. Ask those people. You are not correct. You look like The children online who read the term whataboutism and try to define everything as that to appear smart. It's not a great look. It's not helping you out.