this post was submitted on 25 Dec 2023
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Antiwork
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A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.
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Essential Reads
Start here! These are probably the most talked-about essays on the topic.
- The Abolition of Work by Bob Black (1985) | listen
- On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber (2013) | listen
- In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell (1932) | listen
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Kind of weird that in the last 100 years nearly all the worst famines occured it communist countries.
Except that’s not true? China had much worse famines before the communist revolution, and both China and the USSR never had a famine after the ones you are thinking about.
Meanwhile, we hear every 5 years that hundreds of thousands of people will die of hunger on the Horn of Africa, that millions of people are food insecure at the seat of capitalist power (the US, UK etc.). We see breadlines in the UK, families going hungry because of foodstamp cuts.
And then you see Vietnam, China, Cuba… and they have eliminated famine. Not hunger, but famine. Meaning there are no food insecure people. The USSR had done the same before it collapsed. People in the USSR had better food security than people in the US after the 50s.
You basically don’t know what you’re talking about and are just repeating propaganda points from the Cold War. It’s vibes based ideology, no facts or science.
ROFL nothing what you said is remotely true lol
Saying people in the ussr had better food security than people in the USA in the 50s hahahahahaha
Tankies....lol
There's food insecure people in China too. It's not different in that respect at all.
There is, but when people say “eliminate hunger” or “food insecurity” in these neolib global think tanky way they mean statistically eliminate them.
China has better food security than Italy, Greece, Singapore, South Korea etc. and you’d never associate those countries with hunger or food insecurity.
I find that hard to believe. Which numbers do you base this on?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Food_Security_Index
Ah, fair enough then
Famine killed over 80millions. How you gonna explain that?
Link to evidence of people starving under capitalism, and I’ll show you a place where the government tried to take over food distribution.
I don’t have to find sources for you. But the Irish famine literally was a famine of laissez faire policies. The British landowning class of Ireland deliberately chose to export the agricultural produce of Ireland because it was more profitable. The government refused to step in to create regulations or limitations on exports and that’s what caused the famine. Also, the mono-culture of potatoes was also a factor of capitalism. Industrial mono-culture is the agricultural form of capitalism.
I would suggest not drawing the line between capitalist corporate societies and authoritarian communist dictatorships. Not every message needs to be about government models.
I take a message like this to start a conversation about cooperation instead of greed. Conceptually, I don't see it scaling to 8 billion people.
But the great thing is that we can all individually make the choice to operate this way within our smaller communities, and offer support to those in need when we can afford to. You can even scale this concept down to your family or your team at work. Cooperation can convert certain resources away from being a fixed-sum game.
There's a larger issue of paltering within the previous statement in that it artificially limits the time span under scrutiny and to the headline famines (rather than sum totals) to railroad a specific political inference in service of an anti-collectivist meme.
I'm just trying to support cooperation with the idea of starting small with our friend who isn't ready to think big about it yet. I think people need to experience immersive demonstrations to understand the amplification power of cooperation.
That's certainly commendable but it ignores the power of easily repeated lies.
There is great value in earnest discussion. It, however, requires all sides to be ingenuous. If someone's opening gambit is calculated artifice then all you are doing is giving them soapbox from which to bend pliable minds to their regressive agenda. By all means try to draw them into open discussion but only within a framework of honest representation.
I'm not agreeing with op but for this meme it does make sense to limit the timeframe. Production and worldwide logistics have only recently given us the ability to feed everyone on earth reliably and consistently.
Two hundred years ago a surplus in Argentina couldn't easily be applied to a failed crop in Bangladesh. The world as a whole now produces more than enough food and we have the ability to transport it from anywhere to anywhere. We just don't do it. In the past hunger sometimes couldn't be avoided, now it could.
It's true that the transport system is much faster and reliable now than the 1840’s but you didn't need a Prime subscription to lift a famine. Transport back then was still fast enough.
The conditions that cause famines lasted multiple seasons/years and they didn't drop in over night either. Famine struck areas slide into scarcity slowly as the price of the cheapest food available rises above what is affordable by the poorest in that society.
In some areas, such as the Irish potato famine in the 1840’s, there was still a surplus of food being exported to markets that could afford it. Aid, when it eventually arrived in Ireland came from Britain, USA, Indian Ocean, France, Canada, West Indies, Australia, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, south America, Russia, Latin America, the Ottoman Empire, Spain, Portugal and other British Dependencies. The world was much more connected back then than you may be aware.
Thank you for the links.
It does make sense to limit at least when there's socialist states if you want to compare capitalist states to socialist ones.
Only if you wanted to hide all the earlier famines that happened under capitalism under the tenuous argument that there's some overarching uniformity of development, opportunity, meteorological events, natural disaster etc etc worldwide that allows for fair comparison within the same timeframe.
It just doesn't make sense to compate two completely different timeframes as-is.
On the contrary. There is no cognizant reason to limit the timeframe other than to bury relevant facts unfavorable to anti-left rhetoric.
I thought the point was to compare the two. Wouldn't make sense to give one a much longer timespan in the comparison.
That would only make sense if there was some tangible link between the occurance of famines and the passing of time. But there isn't really. There is to things like war, drought, flooding, epidemics, vermin infestation, mis-management, a country's degree of development etc etc. If you want to make some qualitative comparison between systems of government then use those not some superficial framing set to prejudice the outcome.
But when we're comparing occurrences numerically, of course time matters into it. In comparable time and preferably situations, how many occurrences you'd have.
Skewing the comparison by using two totally different time frames seems just weird ngl. What would be the point, unless you want some specific result
Skewing the comparison by using totally different countries with totally different situations seems weird ngl. What would be the point, unless you want some specific result.
Russia and China both had an unfortunate history of famines before any pesky revolutionairies popped their heads up. Examining a longer time period reveals this highly relevant fragility. Also the facts that both of these huge countries were badly underdeveloped at the time of their revolutions: And the period you wish to limit it to had both of the world wars and the extended periods of international instability associated with them: And both countries suffered invasions and other unusual external pressures over a long period of time. These are relevant factors.
Limiting the time frame for a comparison based solely on a summation of deaths is a leading, manipulation of the study of the phenomena of famines.
Preferably you actually would use the same countries and times, if you could. I'm not sure how you think comparisons usually work lol. You'd try to keep the comparison as similar as possible.
I'm sorry but I feel like you're trying to arrive at a certain conclusion rather than doing an honest comparison.
Limiting by time period and a crude summation of deaths is a dishonest framing for any discussion regarding how one political system may be more the catalyst for famine than another. It is basic correlation vs causation. By all means make a cognizant argument that shows how these limits can promote a fair comparison of the political factors that influence a countries descent into famine. I would like to hear something from you that amounts to more than some article of capitalist (bad) faith. I feel that you will struggle to do so because you are not interested in making an earnest effort to understand famine just in weaponising contrived stats.
Hunger in capitalism is not about famines, it's about mass produced cheap food full of sodium, sugar and chemicals, yes people are feed but at the cost of obesity and other health problems, it's about farmers pushed to plant specific crops to the detriment of the environment and the land, pushed to buy seeds from Monsanto and punished if they dare to plant their own crops.
People still are going hungry in the world, but not we're you can see it, and you will never see it, in your bubble of lights and advertisment.
It’s also about famines tho…
The Irish Famine was 100% caused by capitalism. The Bengal Famine is the same. All famines today in the capitalist world are the fault of capitalist logic. When people die of hunger in Ethiopia or Eritrea, it’s capitalism killing them.
This is a lie.
The Irish Famine was caused by the British government using thugs with guns to steal food from Irish farmers. It had absolutely nothing in it to resemble a free market situation. The Irish Famine was caused when the government stepped in to disrupt the action of the free market.
Capitalism is defined by free markets. When the government comes in and confiscates all the food to export overseas, that is the opposite of a free market,
What are you talking about? The Irish famine was caused by two factors:
The famine was literally caused by the government NOT stepping in, doubling down on laissez faire liberalism and using racist Malthusian excuses like “helping the Irish would just make things worse cause they would procreate like rabbits and need even MORE food”…
I think this pretty much sums up capitalisms’s relationship to food. Hunger in capitalism is a word we use to describe people being driven, because hunger in capitalism is not about famines.
I’m glad we agree on the basic facts here.
No, people here can't even afford that garbage. It actually is more economical to buy unprocessed vegetables, beans, meats, fruits and to just cook your own food.
The only feasible way to participate in the economy is to not be dependent on it to survive.
try to convince all manufactures to stop selling. If won't happen, because of huge profits that follow deficit
You're absolutely right, it's because no one is motivated to do the unenjoyable work