99
Israel says Gaza fighting could last a year, amplifying fears of regional war
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 07 Jan 2024
99 points (94.6% liked)
News
23655 readers
2879 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Genocide is literally Hamas' founding goal. I'm glad they're being hunted down and eliminated.
23,000 dead Palestines, 8,000 of them dead kids, untold numbers mutilated or maimed, 2 million people without homes or shelter, everyone in Gaza starving to death, Israel killing noncombatants at a whim and youre "glad" about what Isreal is doing.
At least you're honest about being genocidal.
I'll give Zionists this much: Unlike the Nazis, they don't pretend to be the good guys.
In the fantasies of worldnews lemmy alt-left MHGA, yes.
Wow, them, too?
Over 8,000 of them terrorist fighters. All of whom intentionally caused as many of the other deaths as possible. All in the hopes that weak minded people with poor reasoning would ignore that what got the others killed is Hamas's war crime (literally) of colocation.
Hamas support is at an all time high. Their charter is literally genocide. But Hamas killing Gaza residents works, just look at the parade of stupid on WorldNews.
So Israel killed a child and a civilian for every single "enemy combatant" (i.e male over 13) and that makes you happy?
You're okay with 2 million people being homeless, starving to death, with hundreds of thousands injured and maimed? With Israel's Ministers of security calling for mass deportation of Palestinians? With the outright murder of journalists?
Your stance is clear. You support genocide as long as its killing people you hate. That makes you something much worse than weak minded. It makes you a monster.
No, Hamas did by committing the war crime of co-location. It's literally one of their key tactics to radicalize people, like here on Lemmy.
And no, I'm not okay with Hamas withholding all the aid and preventing it from getting to the civilians, but again, it works on people like you--they get you angry at Israel. Meanwhile, you want more aid, money, etc to go to Hamas. That's literally where the aid goes, Hamas is the government in Gaza. LOL
Your stance is clear, you're getting dangerously radicalized and severely misinformed. Slow your indoctrination, expand your sources, and I hope you manage to not become too much of a terrorist sympathizer that you endanger yourself or others.
You replied to literally zero of my statements about Israel's actions. To hear you talk, Israel isn't even involved in the war, just Hamas. You cant even respond to Israel's own defense ministers openly calling for genocide as they kill thousands of children and strand millions without food and shelter.
Youre entire rhetorical style is literally "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." What action of Israels agasint the Palestine people would you not be okay with at this point?
When you can only condemn a terrorist group and not acknowledge the genocide Israel's goverment is engaged in to try to kill them, you have lost the plot.
No, you wrote a alt-left anti-Israel nonsense rant and accused me of terrible things. Nobody is okay with killing civilians, not me as you implied in your libel, not Israel who despite the ignorant claims otherwise is NOT targeting civilians. Do you think the death toll would be anywhere near as low as it is for the densest urban fighting we’ve ever seen in our lifetimes if they were trying to maximize civilian casualties? No. In addition, Hamas WANTS maximum civilian casualties, that’s what radicalizes the dumbs, and gets people to join them. Every dead Palestinian is a win for Hamas, they’re a group founded LITEARLLY (their words) on genocide.
Every civilian killed is a loss for Israel, and they know it. Otherwise they wouldn’t provide medical treatment to people injured, which they DO despite lies claiming otherwise, otherwise they wouldn’t give ANY notification to areas with planned operations. Which they’ve done, even though it makes executing the mission much more difficult. And so on. Where things have gone terribly wrong, civilians have died as collateral (again, densest urban fighting in our lifetimes), and in war you can’t always make everything peace and roses. The superignorant 18-24 group in the US seems to think war is easy, and a civilian only dies when an evil Jewish state wants them to. However, the ENTIRE HISTORY OF WARS disagrees and has collateral damage, EVEN when the enemy is not co-locating like Hamas.
Maybe if the Palestinian Arabs had not rejected a two state solution, what, like four or five times (pre-48 and post-48 combined), this wouldn’t be happening, I don’t know? But who cares about hypothetical, it’s where we’re at now.
So again, you’re ridiculous libel accusing me of not caring about homeless starving to death. The ONLY reason those people are starving is Hamas, period—it’s why relief can’t get to the civilians and why even when it could it is stolen for Hamas. It’s not Israel, but you gotta be able to think past an Al-Jazeera/Qatar/Hamas (all the same thing) propaganda piece.
Also, Hamas uses kids under 13, so… yeah.
And no, I do not ignore any genocide or genocide adjacent talk from Likud. I’m vehemently Anti-Likud and Anti-Bibi and want to see them tried and convicted for their crimes BEFORE oct 7th of collective punishment and more. Along with Hamas and their most ardent supporters and financers (which is going to include a fuck ton of Palestian government officials). There’s been war criminals in this conflict since before the Ottoman’s lost the territory of Palestine.
And the murder of journalists is another giant bunch of stuipdness you’re spouting. In what way does Israel benefit from it? You and people like you read fake stories all day long and believe them and get futher radlicalized and closer to becoming terrorists. Those stories aren’t going to stop because a journalist is killed, and they don’t depend on facts on the ground. Killing a journalist does nothing to stop what’s making you a terrorist sympathizer.
A journalist as collateral damage in a war zone is never a victory for anyone, it’s always miserable PR and public support matters. There’s no win for Israel killing journalists. What you’re seeing… sigh… once again is war in a super dense urban setting. It’s not like a war where journalists are sitting a mile from the front lines. Anyone reporting there is in combat. It’s a war against terrorists using human shields. UNRWA spaces aren’t even safe because they’re basically a terrorist organization themselves under the UN, etc. They are a principal financial source of Hamas. Journalists being NOT killed would actually be more surprising. But it definitely feeds a tin-foil-hat alt-left MHGA fake narrative and helps further with the radicalization of people gullible enough to consume it.
I condemn war crimes of the Israeli government, and before Israel existed of the Palestinian Jews who committed them. The difference is that I condemn the war crimes of the Palestinian Arabs, and now the stateless Gaza actors, whereas you have a head full of propaganda making you so crazy that you accuse strangers on the internet of being okay with civilians getting killed, and starvation of people, killing journalist, etc.
Last, if you really fucking cared about this stuff in principle… you’d care about Haiti and DRC even more… they have WAY more millions of displaced people, you’d care about the Syrian refugee camp which is still MASSIVE and still fucking awful, etc. But your time is spent trying to attack strangers on the net as a knee-jerk to something you don’t know shit about.
Hopefully, you feel answered and replied to now. With how you started the conversation, “fuck you”, is probably all you deserve. But I’m hoping that you’re not so far down the path of radicalization that you can be reasoned with a bit.
PS: Here’s a link to ministers calling for genocide, since you care about it. It’s not comprehensive, but it’s a starting place if you want to climb out of your bubble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel?wprov=sfti1#
There’s way too much white noise surrounding this conflict to trust any source aside from your own eyes.
Youre likely right. Israel destroyed all of the telecommunication infastructure and has killed more journalists than any other modern conflict, so the information is likely out of date. With 40% of Gaza population being children, there are likely more dead kids from direct attacks, bombings, or starvation.
I expect the numbers of dead civilians and children are actually much worse.
In every war, you want to destroy the communications capabilities of your enemies--in this case Hamas. It's a very basic military tactic (throughout the history of warfare), I get you're trying to tin-foil-hat this into a conspiracy and fake story but that's silly.
Then how do you know it's even happening?
For your convenience:
https://imeu.org/article/plan-dalet
https://forward.com/news/470923/israel-land-conquest-1967-occupation-six-day-war-plans/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/12/17/born-without-civil-rights/israels-use-draconian-military-orders-repress
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations
https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/palestinian-arab-congresses
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace
This lets me know who you are, it’s helpful when people post sources like mondoweiss:
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY Reasoning: Propaganda, Hate Group, Misinformation
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mondoweiss/
But if we want to do low effort grabs from anywhere on the net, that’s easy:
And I mean in hindsight Mufti wasn’t wrong, it’s just that it was virtually ALL the Arab & Muslim states that expelled the Jews and stole their land. 800,000+ of them. I know YOU don’t care about that because they were Jewish, and you’re not upset on principal otherwise you would care and note it. You’re attempting to make some one-sided nonsense alt-left MHGA fantasy narrative.
Palestinians maybe in hindsight shouldn’t have REJECTED the 1947 partition (you know where Palestinian Jews said, two states is fine with us and Palestinian Arabs said fuck no), which would have also made them a state. They did so hoping to eliminate all the Jews or at least hoping all the Arab states would in the multiple wars that followed which fortunately the Arabs lost. It’s weird that your cherry-picked bullshit doesn’t mention the collation of Arab states who attacked as soon as Israel was a state, assuming they’d destroy Israel and all the Jews. Oh right, you’re creating a false narrative. Nevermind, I get it. Though to your credit, you included propaganda that attempts to essentially tin-foil hat blame Israel for the 67 war in which multiple arab states attacked together to destroy it. Just wow.
Arafat cut his teeth on rejecting the existence and legitimacy of Israel. He was a militant and terrorist, before he learned to grift the Palestinians and embezzle all those $$$.
Oslo accords, the Palestinians went all in on suicide bombers and terrorism. Killing as many civilians as they could to derail it. This was the birth of today’s modern Hamas. It’s where they gained their ground, and enough power that they could ultimately ensure Bibi would get elected over Perez by less than 1%. Because war and dead Palestinians are Hamas’s primary tactic with their FOUNDING goal, the genocide of Israel.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
And unless you’ve been hiding under a rock, Hamas’s actions through the decades and in OCTOBER are very clear that this is not a misinterpretation.I mean this nonsense shit of your is bush league, things like attempting to cherry pick historical events and disingenuously omit others to create a false narrative. I can give you link after link of Palestinians (and any modern Arab nation) calling for the destruction and genocide of Israel. There’s plenty on all the violence pre-establishment of Israel.
Probably best to quit your bullshit. There are no innocent parties here. And right now Hamas is more popular than they’ve ever been. They’re Gaza’s government and if a vote were held today, they’d also be the West Bank’s government. They have constantly growing and majority support by the Palestinians, including in Gaza where they were first elected.
Nice job ignoring the rest of the links that addressed those points. You accuse me of cherry picking while you literally cherry pick. It's weird that you ignore the ethnic cleansing campaign Plan Dalet; the war for israel independence is too complicated to summarize but it's talked about extensively in the first and third book I mention in the following. If you don't like mondoweiss that's fine, I linked because it shows the points Ilan Pappe makes in his works, not because it's mondoweiss.
If you care to learn more, I urge you to read or listen to the books
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
The Biggest Prison on Earth A History of the Occupied Territories
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples
Each by Ilan Pappe who uses official Israeli documents, testimonies by Israeli officials, Arab sources, and oral history to piece together a comprehensive history of Israel and Palestine. I'm sure you'll discredit it as bias, which it is, he says so himself. But that doesn't change how credible his work is. Go into it with a skeptical eye and verify everything he talks about on your own. It's a deep dive but it's worth it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
There's a whole section for you on the disagreements between historians on Plan Dalet. With references, if you want to read something that doesn't support confirmation bias.
There's no innocent parties in this conflict. That's always a point I'm clear on. This is why portraying the Palestinians as poor angelic victims and Israel as (most commonly on worldnews) genocidal nazis is stupid.
I can list many, many Israeli war crimes. I'd love to see Bibi and many Likud members tried at the ICJ or ICC and convicted of war crimes. But I can also list the same thing for the Palestinian Arabs and their descendents who are now stateless.
Both groups have a long history of war crimes. Unlike Lemmy users who had an underdog fantasy boner slathered in anti-israeli and anti-Jewish hatred.
Most of my reading right now is trying to understand when an actual Palestinian identity arose. With respect to the fact that in the Ottoman empire, things were mostly tribal and family, and that type of nationalism wasn't a thing.
PS: I think much could have been avoided if the Palestinian Arabs had not rejected 2 state solution like 4 or 5 times. (Pre and post 48)
Stop strawman-ing me, dude. I'm for a one-state solution with equal rights for all. I'd rather you look at my comment history instead of straight up fabricating what I believe. It's clear you don't understand the full context of the peace talks both pre and post 48 if that's how you see it. Check the intercept link to learn more.
Don't confuse bias for credibility. Pappe is biased towards Palestinian emancipation. He explains his position and why in his introductions instead of hiding his bias like some Historians such as Benny Morris.
Here's Pappe's response to Benny Morris, where he debunks Morris' claims:
https://electronicintifada.net/content/response-benny-morris-politics-other-means-new-republic/5040
CAMERA criticisms are easily debunked as seen here:
https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/42571
https://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben-gurion-letter-advocating-the-expulsion-of-palestinians/
"Ben-Gurion’s 5 October 1937 letter thoroughly vindicates Ilan Pappé’s reading; indeed, the Pappé quotes to which CAMERA objects seem almost mild when compared to the actual words Ben-Gurion penned to his son. The more literal translation of the Ben-Gurion direct quote (“We must expel Arabs and take their place”) is actually stronger than Pappé’s freer rendering (“The Arabs must go”), although the meaning is basically the same. As for Pappé’s paraphrase, it is as accurate and comprehensive as any so succinct a sentence could possibly be."
There's plenty of reputable historians praising Pappe's work and credibility. You can find links to them in his wiki page.
If you're reading up on the subject, you might as well add one of his books to your list. The third book I referenced has a detailed account of the Palestinian people since around the 1920s if you want to learn more about them.
My point to you is there’s plenty of disagreement among historians. In the context of this original thread we’re so far from it that debating what academics can’t agree on after decades isn’t going to happen anytime soon.
Nobody is straw maning you. And at this point we can agree to disagree, a one state solution will never ever happen. There’s too many war crimes on both sides, and too much radicalization of the populations, too much history.
The only one state solution is going to be the existing Palistinian Arabs who became Israeli citizens (is it still at 20% of Israel’s population, I haven’t looked in a long time)? And we probably compeltely agree that the way they’re treated as second class citizens is a crime, and still a fight that needs to be won. First step, get rid of fucking Likud. ;)
I personally think 2 state is the best bet. If I had my idea…. we’d evacuate and seal off Jerusalm forever. Nobody can live together in peace, nobody gets the prize. Fuck all that religious nonsense. The dammed place causes nothing but awful anyway, it’s a shitty evil piece of dirt.
Gotta run, so don’t have time to proof read or spell check… my apologies.
PS: I will check out the books. Thanks for the recommenation.
I'm aware of the disagreement of historians on whether plan dalet was defensive or offensive. To me, after learning about what was said in the minutes of the Yishuv meetings, remarks in the diary of Ben-Gurion and other officials during the operations, and the extent of the on-the-ground operations; it's clear to me that it was offensive and planned. After Learning about the extent of the settlements in the west bank, it's also clear to me that a 2 state solution just isn't possible. There's no way to forcibly remove over 800k settlers, even if it was technically possible it still wouldn't be moral to me.
But hey, I'm glad you're open to checking out those books.
They have much more information and context from a much larger variety of sources than I could ever personally collect and summarize.
FWIW, I think one state with equal rights is the best solution. I'm with you there. I just think it's impossible.
A lot of these radical Israeli settlers should be relocated, even as I completely agree that it feels impossible to do so. The aggressive and illegal Israeli settlements designed to interrupt and impact the Oslo accords have always been a huge problem I have with Israel.
Israel has a right to exist and defend themselves. But fuck their war crimes of collective punishment (specificly pre oct.) and more.
The Arabs who used to live in Palestine and their descendents have a right to exist and defend themselves, just like the Jews who lived in Palestine. And even though every single tocket fired by Gaza was a war crime, the current response by Israel I would have viewed as war crimes also. But for me, October 7th changed the equation significantly. No country in the entire world would tolerate Hamas next door, even if they are the government of Gaza. Their infrastructure and logistics has the be wiped out.
I really wish we could just forbid everyone from Jerusalem. LOL, everything would be 1000x easier if we did. No temple mount, no mosque, no nothing.
And I've done reading on the Nakba and the many crimes of the Palestinian Jews. One thing I always reflect on is who some of these radical Palestinian Jews were... people who fled during or at the end of WWII, and people who had endured Russian and Slavic pogroms, etc.
Knowing that fact makes it to me, very believable that disputed crimes at the LEAST were possible, if not likely. They remind me of the population of Gaza. They were so radicalized and traumatized, and so on.... In the same way that nobody wants Gaza residents in their country (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, etc). At this point, I think maybe only Yemen would take the Gaza population.
Sorry, I rambled and probably said much of nothing. It's been a long day. Good talk.