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I've keep being put into a position where I have to further my consideration in voting for Biden.
He's the strongest the Democrats can muster, we can't have any one else (but please don't criticize him, he's incredibly weak, a strong breeze will knock him over). Hes the best option we've got to stop a Palestinian genocice (oh except earlier today he vetoed a vote via the UN that could have stopped the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people). But we have to vote Biden because Trump would probably be worse (even though, you know, Biden is the one right now supporting the genocide. not hypothetical).
If you think this delusional policy is defensible, right here right now, you are part of the problem.
NO right wing voter is going to support Biden. PERIOD. NONE. You will ONLY get votes for Biden stepping to the left. Literally every Democratic victory in 60 fucking years have happened that way. But yeah, keep pursuing these genocidal right of Rumsfield positions, Democrats. I"m sure you'll find that center once you have cripwalked past Cheny's undead beating heart of evil.
THe entire last decade of political progress made by progressives has been lost because of this idiot.
This is fucking delusional. Democrats are not all further to the left than Biden - you'll never get conservative votes, but you can sure as shit lose moderate Democrats. And the only leftists not voting Dem at this point, with 'Day-One Dictator' running, are people who run fucking purity tests and won't be satisfied until Biden is waving a red flag. Which, while amusing, is not a realistic way to win an election in the current US.
Listen, I will be voting for Biden, who is clearly worlds better than Trump. But the idea that Palestinian Americans who won't vote for someone funding the ethnic cleansing of their own family members are "purity test" losers is...well, its a take.
Yeah, no, if the opinion is that "This decades-long US policy of supporting a foreign country isn't ending now, therefore, everyone in the US and in Palestine can get fucked, including me and all of my family members", that's not an opinion worth taking seriously.
You can say it's an understandable emotional reaction, but it sure as shit isn't a reasonable one.
What's unreasonable is acting like not supporting the active genocide of your own people is unreasonable.
Especially since you're conflating genocide with apartheid.
I have friends that have lost the ENTIRETY of their extended families, you sick fuck.
Mother, father, sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts and uncles all murdered in a single fucking night.
I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be capable of looking them in the eye and saying the same thing. Or, at least, not if you had any human decency.
Edit: changed lost to murdered because they didn't just mysteriously die.
What, looking them in the eye and saying "Voting for millions of minorities in America to be oppressed and killed isn't going to save anyone, but it sure as shit will kill and oppress millions of minorities"?
Sorry that I feel that "MORE people need to suffer" is not a reasonable reaction to suffering?
Fuck you genocide apologist. You've made it clear you're willing to sacrifice anyone for your own safety.
Which, come to think of it, is an extremely right wing fascist viewpoint.
What is your problem with Trump again? You don't have a problem with genocide.
As opposed to be willing to sacrifice everyone else out of... what, spite?
Fascists don't go to war because they're scared, though they often are scared as well. Fascists go to war because human suffering is their highest goal.
You wanna explain to me what oppressing millions of minorities achieves, other than human suffering?
You want to explain to me what your are not willing to sacrifice in the 'name' of democracy?
You're okay with genocide.
You're okay with separating kids from their families and throwing them in cages.
Seriously, what is it about Trump that you're not willing to support?
"Why do you not want the worse candidate?"
Huh. I'm not really sure. I guess it must be because they're fucking worse on every issue.
I'm not okay with genocide or 'secure border' insanity. But I also recognize that cutting the brakes and saying 'all aboard the fascism express' is not a fucking improvement.
Please, tell me about your totally-not-fascist alternative to democracy. I'd love to hear it.
Jesus you're dumb (pun intended fully, though adding or leaving the comma was a tough decision.) And I say that, not because we disagree, but because of your complete misreading of that last bit you quote.
Democracy is a political system. Same as fascism (not that they are equal, but they are both political systems.) The reason the former is supposedly better, when paired with minority rights, is that it doesn't lead to things like genocide.
You're willing to throw away minority rights, and embrace genocide as an acceptable option for the facade of democracy that you love.
What you are supporting is not democracy. And you don't love democracy, because you're willing to throw the bits that separate democracy from mob rule out, to save the trappings of democracy. And you're willing to tolerate genocide, the bad thing that supposedly fascism leads to and democracy doesn't, to support, again, the trappings of democracy.
Secondly, I think that you are arguing in bad faith. I think you don't actually believe Trump will end in fascism (though, I actually somewhat do).
Tell me, have you started purchasing weapons? Stockpiling food, water, medical supplies, and ammo? If not, why not? Resistance is the proper response to fascism, no? Lest something like, oh I don't know, a genocide happens?
And this is all during a time where we're not actually locked into Biden as a candidate. You're all in for supporting Biden though he is actively participating in a genocide, and justifying it with 'Trump's worse!' when we are in the time period where we could choose someone else!
It's almost like you are arguing in bad faith and trying to prevent anyone else but Biden.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy.
I absolutely think a second Trump administration is more likely than not to end American democracy and usher in an age of fascism, possibly worldwide.
My guy, if fascism comes to America, I'm a mentally ill near-sighted cripple living significantly below the poverty line with an irregular income with few practical skills. If fascism comes to America, my options are pretty limited to "hide messages in my cane for la resistance" and "off myself".
And separately, prepper delusions aren't going to be much help.
I don't know how to address this level of delusion without going over a hundred years of American political history, which I suspect would be lost on you.
I love how you parade your ignorance. The Democratic candidate absolutely can be decided at the convention. All it would require is the current president engaging in an extremely unpopular genocide that IS going to cost him the election step down. You know, if he actually wanted to protect the country from Trump
So.... Just to be clear with your previous arguments about being perfectly okay with sacrificing people, you'd actually vote for a Democratic candidate that was better than Trump in all ways, except he advocated for euthanizing, in your words, cripples?
You expect Palestinians to vote for the man providing the weapons that are being used to kill their entire families. You'd make the same sacrifice you expect of others?
Tell that to the Italians. You keep using the word Fascism, without thinking through the ramifications of that word. It's not a prepper fantasy to say that if you believe the end of democracy is nigh, and fascism is coming, that you should start stockpiling weapons to try to prevent the concentration camps. Something you also don't seem to have a problem with, as long as they're not in America.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the last 200 years of political theory.
Yes, absolutely. Fuck, man, that's not even that far off. The US health care system as is is going to end me before long, and Biden isn't going to do a damn thing about it. I still don't want anyone else to be fucked who can be saved from being fucked.
Also, in this example, Trump should be advocating the torture and euthanization of cripples. Because Trump's track record and rhetoric are both considerably worse on the issue of Palestine and Israel.
If asked to choose between "More evil" and "Less", pick less. If asked to choose between having your entire family killed and having your brother killed, pick your brother. No one is saved by picking the greater evil. It's not a moral choice. It's not helpful. It's just a tantrum.
All of your other points are just rehashing the same arguments made before.
Sigh I can't disagree with you there. At all.
Especially with the way this administration and everyone seems to have forgotten Covid is still a mass disabling event.
You're right, they are. You'd sacrifice everything to prevent the end of democracy, without the recognition that to a significant enough portion of the population if genocide is on the table democracy already ended.
And you'd rather blame them, then literally the one man who could, in your arguments, save it. According to polling, basically anyone but Biden beats Trump. Fuck man, even the NYTimes with Nate Silver is starting to push the idea that Biden needs step down for the sake of the country.
No, that's really not how democracy works. It's not "Democracy unless it does something evil, then it's not democracy."
Democracy is not some good, pure, angelic ideal. It's ugly. It's asking people what they want. And oftentimes, people want shitty fucking things.
That's literally not true, and I can dig up plenty of polls which disprove that handily. More pertinently, no one who is running performs better than Biden, except "Unknown Generic Democrat Who Everyone Can Project Their Views Onto" which every minor candidate in the primary wants to convince everyone they are.
Nate Silver also pushes 'Both Sides'. He's a statistician, not a polisci specialist.
He's a good person to watch to get a feeling for what the people who would make the decision of who to run in the Democratic Convention are thinking. Since that is what matters, and not, you know, democracy.
I'm curious, do you play board games, and if you do, how do you feel about board games that contain "kingmaking" elements?
It's related, I promise.
Also, I apologize for the earlier insults and claims of bad faith. I strongly disagree with you, but you didn't deserve those. I'm sorry.
... is he? Nate Silver is a statistician without strong ties to the Democratic Party. Why would his opinions influence the decisionmakers in the DNC? Or reflect them?
Haven't played any board games in a long time, but I used to enjoy those kinds. I used to play In The Shadow Of The Emperor.
Nah, it's fine. I don't trust anyone who doesn't get heated about politics. It's one of the things in the world where you absolutely SHOULD be pissed.
There absolutely several public figures you can watch that reflect the views of the people that make the decisions.
Kingmaking is a thing that happens in games that involve more than two people where at the end game it becomes clear that only two people could potentially win, and the other players have to continue playing without the possibility to win, but end up with the power to make a choice on who of the two potential winners does in fact win.
Some people absolutely hate it, and feel that any decision made by one of the players that can't win that involves anything that isn't self-motivated as cheating.
Some people don't love it, but don't hate it, and have the view that the two people winning should take into account their own popularity with the decisions they make before the game devolved into only two potential winner, and that if they lose from people being mad at previous decisions that it is their own fault.
I've tried to give an unbiased description, though I obviously have an opinion.
Hopefully the parallel is obvious, too.
This frames voting for Biden as a white man's burden to save Palestinians from their own emotions. Surely you see a problem here?
Holy fuck, this is the stupidest and worst fucking take outside of pure genocide cheerleading I've ever fucking seen for justifying a fucking genocide.
This genocide could be stopped tomorrow if the US stopped providing weapons and money for the genocide.
This isn't some stupid fucking "White mans burden" (I have trouble writing that out because of how despicably idiotic it is) bullshit. If we stopped giving one side the bombs, they would stop falling on the fucking Palestinians. We are directly responsible for the murder of their family members, and you're arguing that they need to vote for the single individual that could stop the murder with one phone call.
You want Palestinians in the US to continue paying for and supplying the bombs, shells, and bullets being used to kill their family members. And you're justifying it with language that is supposed to be used for arguing for justice. Yay for intersectionality!
You know those memes of a bomber decked out in rainbow flags as it drops bombs on some 'enemy' of America? That's you. You're using the language of progressivism to justify murder. Good job.
... I think I misread your comment. Okay let me make myself perfectly clear about what I meant:
There's this idea that we have to vote for Biden to stop fascism (lol) and so everyone needs to follow the party line this election. There's a corollary that has popped up which says it's understandable for Palestinian-Americans and Arab-Americans more broadly to not vote for Biden, because they're too emotional to make the smart decision and that's understandable. This, in turn, creates a white man's burden - we must vote for Biden to make up for the votes he's losing from the overly emotional victims of this conflict.
And I somehow read you as saying this, and I think I confused you with that cracker PugJesus. I'm really sorry, it's absolutely clear that's not what you meant and I can't imagine how I misread you so badly!
I'm sorry if not supporting genocide is a purity test. Ohh, fuck workers rights too. And let's add on the endless wars/drone strikes that Democrats like also.
Enjoy having no standards and morals.
I am starting to think this is Chuck Schumers secret account with this dumb ass, proven wrong "for every liberal vote we lose, we'll gain two suburban moms" math.
It's amazing to me that you're more angry with the people who can't vote for an ongoing genocide, then you are for the fucked up undemocratic private process of the Democratic party that is forcing someone unpopular enough to lose without the left because of the genocide.
Also, you know when lgbt people say that they won't accept rights by abandoning their trans brothers and sisters? You're the blue MAGA fuck they're talking about.
Preserving a democracy that sacrifices people or commits genocide is not really preserving a democracy, it's preserving mob rule without protection for minorities.
You're in love with a process that doesn't exist anymore.
Biden has lost Michigan at this point. Biden is putting Democratic strongholds at risk with these policy decisions.
We need a new candidate and we need them now. Biden will not win like this, and no amount of water carrying on your part can change that.
Sure, he's not going to get any right-wing voters, but is he going to lose left-wing voters? There's still a center, and the majority of people are in there. That majority cares about things like this.
What progress is that?
No you don't. Because you have 2 options: Biden or Trump. If you are considering Trump as a legitimate pick, then just say you're a fascist and save everyone time.
Despite what the internet says, most of America is not that progressive. Else we'd have more progressive candidates down ballot. People love to bitch and whine about how there's no good options. Well that's because America is pretty conservative on a lot of issues. It's not like there's this giant leap from left-leaning to far-right fascists. It's a huge spectrum. People not wanting to recognize this is why we get posts like this.
If America was truly as progressive as some people thought, a third party could sweep the Democrats with a popular progressive candidate. Unfortunately that's just not the case. But it is changing. Albeit slowly.
So get out there and campaign or run for office. Because this kind of grandstanding only creates voter apathy.
In a word, no. The GOP and the DNC actively collude to ensure that no one else can compete.
So our choices are 1) fascists who support a fascist or 2) ethnic cleansing apologists who are 100% okay with voting for the man supplying weapons and aid to those committing the cleansing.
Hitler was voted in.
Part of the problem with the political system of fascism is that it leads to scapegoating and then genocide.
We've got genocide right now, though.
Not quite. He was named chancellor. https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/adolf-hitler-1
But your point stands: Hitler gained power in a legitimate fashion. Chancellorship (it's why that's the fascist win condition in Secret Hitler, not Hitler being elected President). And then he took the rest of the power and made himself a dictator. Which is why we should be absolutely terrified of risking a Trump election. Giving him the pretense of legitimacy will only make it that much easier for him to take absolute power. And Trump has said he would. He said he'd be "dictator for a day". Which is the biggest red flag possible.
Yeah fucking right. Money is the number one determining factor in candidate success, and after that it is the organizational power of the DNC. How deluded do you have to be to think that ANY third party is going to be able to muster populist support given the current economic & political paradigm. I'm sorry, but that is just so fucking naive I can't believe you even tried to float that.
Jesus, get some reading comprehension skills. The person you're responding to agrees with you.
No, no they do not.
They're arguing against voting for a third party, just as you are.
I don't agree with either of you, but this isn't about what I agree with or disagree with:
You're arguing that anyone voting for a third party is a waste, and that anyone arguing for that is naive.
The person you responded to is saying the same thing, but with more words, and the final paragraph arguing that if people are unhappy they should run or organize for political offices, rather than argue for or vote for a third party.
I guess you could potentially read that interpretation into what they said, but that is not how I personally took it. To me it seemed like they were arguing that if there was any real appetite for a progressive populist candidate that it would be possible to get them elected through grassroots support alone, and I just don't agree with that at all for the reasons that I already stated. The nature of the two party system is that it necessarily creates the artificial appearance of majority support for candidates that would otherwise not even represent a plurality within their own party a lot of the time.
You lefties make me want to vote for trump. I've been a Democrat my entire life but I hate being associated with you idiots. Biden is a strong president and has done far more good than any president in the past 50 years but you're too far up hasan pikers ass to see it.
If I see one more "lefty" talking shit about Biden, I'm voting for trump and getting the other fence centers to do so. And I hope he leaves NATO and abandons Palestine to be left a crater so you idiots can finally have a reason to cry (wouldn't matter since you're always crying).
Imagine thinking that your candidate is above criticism for enabling a genocide 🤡
Go ahead and do what you're going to do. If someone correctly criticizing Biden for being too right-wing makes you want to vote for Trump, you never had any principles anyway.
Criticism is fair play and he should be criticized for funding any war as a whole BUT Israel is our ally. That's just how it goes. Although 28,000 deaths and counting is pretty messed up - I just don't see how it's our/Biden's fault.
In the interests of furthering discussion, what are some of these good deeds he did that you see as remarkable?
Lowest unemployment rate in the last 50 years
Got us out of Afghanistan
Debt relief for student loans
Cracked down on COVID and made real efforts to eradicate it
Need more?
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/08/biden-cherry-picks-unemployment-record/
But trump had the worst unemployment rate because of his mishandling of COVID. Two of my examples. Funny how you tried to focus in a single point (and failed) and ignored the others.
You're not good at this 😂😂😂
Great, now we're having spite Olympics. What's the point of citizenship if the citizenry isn't going to take the matter seriously?
Lol no I will never vote for that moron. I was just behaving like you morons do - I must admit, it felt gross. I don't know how you do it 24/7