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If Biden loses in November, don’t blame voters who are angry over Gaza | Arwa Mahdawi
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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Versus someone who would be even worse for Palestinians and Americans? No, I won't blame Biden if people let Trump in over the issue of Palestine. Because it means they were fast asleep between 2016 and 2020.
There is a genocide going on now not later. Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not. This isn't a hypothetical. If Israel is allowed to continue, by April, there won't be a Palestinian people in Gaza to consider. They'll have been starved/ bombed to death, by Israel with the explicit support of Joe Biden.
Do you not fucking get it?
There's another genocide going on now in the U.S. that people like you don't seem to care about and which Trump will absolutely make far worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_genocide#United_States
Because the genocide of queer people in the U.S. apparently is far less important and if Trump gets into office, has already planned and made clear that it will be far worse.
But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.
hey I see and appreciate you, I'm also trans, I literally research justice initiatives for LGBTQ+ and specifically trans* individuals in the USA
but my friend, can we please not compare what's happening to us to what is happening to Palestinians? This makes us look like ignorant assholes
Trans people might be next in line for literal genocide, but right now we're experiencing ideological violence more than physical violence
In fact, when we closely examine violence against trans people, the rates of murder and physical violence are only elevated for trans individuals who are poor and people of color. White, middle class trans people are actually less likely to experience physical violence than non-trans poor POCs. That could change depending on political winds, but...
Right now, people in Palestine are experiencing something horrific and unprecedented that eclipses trans suffering in the USA. I am right there with you, afraid of the march of fascism, afraid of what another Trump presidency might bring for our community. But I am not getting airstriked, starved, and war crimed right now. My children are not being shot in the head. I can write about these issues online and in my professional life and not get hung for it. It's just not the same.
No. It's not the same. But it is still genocide. As the link shows, it fits that definition. And the person is telling me that I shouldn't do something to stop that genocide because there's another genocide that neither Trump nor Biden is going to do anything to stop and both will make worse. It seems to me that Americans should work on stopping the genocide that is happening in our own country with our vote rather than voting for some third party in protest or sitting at home when that has never worked.
Yeah, you're objectively correct for encouraging people to vote for Biden instead of sit at home in November. Just please, please, please... I deal with offline average joes all the time. If we make one to one comparisons of our situation with that of Palestinians, most people will be disgusted and think we're incredibly off base.
We are in agreement across the board. I just want to caution you to be mindful of the comparison, is all.
You're not stopping either genocide if you elect the same guy who is currently doing nothing (and is actually actively making them worse) about either of these things. That's pure cognitive dissonance.
Fine. Who should I vote for that has a chance of winning?
It sounds like you've already decided that you want to support genocide in both the US and Palestine, so clearly you should pick Biden or Trump because they'll both deliver on that.
Maybe there's a better choice. Maybe you know that better choice. Can you tell me who that better choice with a relatively good chance of winning is so I can vote for them?
So we're just completely changing the subject?
Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is "No", the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He's doing fucking horribly. He's losing this election and we haven't even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.
If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he's not going to win in November.
Pointing out that you are ignoring a genocide in the U.S. that Trump and his people want to make worse is not changing the subject. It's pointing out that you're ignoring a genocide. Which you are.
But please tell me who I should vote for to stop that genocide. Give the name of the candidate that would get enough votes to beat Trump.
Because if you wanted someone other than Biden, you shouldn't have waited until after the primaries started.
But go ahead- give me a name.
Millions of Palestinians are facing starvation right now. They will be dying en-masse before the end of March if something doesn't change. Joe Biden is supporting this. He just lost There is no equivalence happening within the borders of the United States, except maybe our prison system. Yes the Republicans are setting the ground work for a genocide of queer people in this country. We have to stop them. Insisting that we support a candidate who is clearly losing the election is no way to do this. We can't afford to lose this election and insisting that Biden be the nominee is insisting we lose this election.
Uncommitted just won two delegates in Michigan. Biden will not win this election unless he massively shifts his position on Gaza.
You haven't given me a name.
People like you never give me a name.
If we have to stop them, who should I vote for instead of Biden?
What are you on about? Stop changing the point of the conversation.No one is personally attacking you. We're talking about what its going to take to keep Trump out of office in 2024, and we disagree about some key points. Why are you making this about you? How narcissist are you? Its creepy and weird. Stick to the points of the conversation please.
And what is that? An advocate for peace and justice? Someone who wants to not have Trump in 2024, no matter what (even if that means Biden isn't the nominee)? What assumptions are you making?
I haven't changed the conversation at all and never said you are attacking me.
Yet again, who should I vote for? Why can't you tell me? All you're telling me is not Biden. Fine. So who?
Bro, scope my comment history or his this is his go to
Isn't that exactly what you're arguing for? The guy currently in office, who you want to re-elect, is the one presiding over both of these genocides. How the hell does re-electing him make things any better?
Putting Trump in office will make it worse.
So who should I vote for to stop that?
How exactly does genocide get worse? Are they going to start reanimating the corpses of these dead men, women, and children and then kill them a second time?
Please tell me who you feel I should vote for that has a good chance of winning.
so biden is currently presiding over and doing nothing to stop two genocides? and you want to reward that with an unconditional vote of support, so that next time democrats are in office, they'll know that people don't care?
Reward? No. I want to stop the one who will make it worse.
And if you can tell me who I should vote for to stop Trump that isn't Biden, a person that is more likely to get more electoral college votes than Biden will against Trump, please name the person.
biden's only selling point at the moment is that he isn't trump, so with 6 months of campaigning and biden's endorsement you could probably sell any democrat
me giving you a name now is almost entirely pointless given that you're just going to turn around and say that because they haven't already done that campaigning you can't imagine them being popular
do you or do you not acknowledge that by voting biden you're sending a message to the dnc that their voter base doesn't care about genocide?
I will answer that question after I am told who I should vote for that will stop Trump from getting into office. Because I haven't been given a name yet despite asking multiple times.
You've literally asked me once, friend, and I explained why me giving you a name wouldn't make any sense.
I fully expect that in the hypothetical world where the DNC decides it doesn't want to lose this election and decides to swap out Biden with somebody else that my gut reaction will be that they're shit, but that's because they haven't done any campaigning yet.
If there's no one to vote for that has a chance of beating Trump other than Biden, I guess I'll vote for Biden.
I know for the sake of pride you aren't going to openly acknowledge this, given how pointedly you're refusing to engage with anything I'm saying, but at least admit it to yourself: voting for Biden is sending a signal that the democrats can allow as much genocide as they want so long as they can convince you the other side will be worse.
If you think that's worth the trade-off, fine, but don't pretend that that isn't the trade-off you're making.
The trade-off is stopping Trump from continuing the genocide in the U.S. that he and his Republican friends are already a part of and which my daughter would be a victim of.
So yeah, saving my daughter's life is sure as hell worth the trade-off.
And I'm pretty amused that you think it sends that message after the primaries. Because the time to challenge Biden was before the primaries.
Did you do anything about that? Did you canvas for any primary rival of Biden's?
Because if I'm sending a signal to the Democrats that "as much genocide as they want" is okay... unless you've been canvassing for Dean Phillips or Marianne Willaimson, I think you have been too.
If the democrats win this election while running a candidate that's twiddling his thumbs over multiple genocides, then the next time they're presiding over one, they're going to have solid data that tells them that they don't have to bother themselves about it because their voter base will elect them anyway.
It's really that simple.
Your lack of answering my question is actually an answer.
You did nothing about Biden being the frontrunner. You did no canvassing. Yet somehow you bear no responsibility in your criticism.
Similarly your lack of engaging with the point I keep repeating to you past an unsubstantiated "no" is also an answer.
This is just whataboutism. I could be the guiltiest person on the planet, and that wouldn't change the fact that electing Biden while he's failing to stop three (?) genocides is a clear signal to the DNC that the amount of genocide happening on their watch has little to do with their eventual success or failure.
And yet, the time to do something about that has still passed and you still did nothing about it when you had the time.
I know you want to avoid all culpability and put it on me, but sorry. I'm putting my child first. And that means stopping Trump no matter who the Democrats choose.
I'm not a Democrat anyway.
"culpability" seems a lot more important to you than it does to me
and again, let's presume i'm the worst person in the world and i'm guilty : it doesn't change anything about what i've said
and you know it doesn't matter if you're a registered democrat, right? your vote still shows up in the tally just the same
Of course it matters if I'm a Democrat. I don't care about teaching them a lesson. All I care about is saving my daughter's life.
The fact that you seem to think that voting to stop Trump in order to save my daughter's life is a moral failing on my part sincerely makes me hope you don't have any kids.
Sorry, my daughter's life is the most important thing in the world to me and I would immediately sacrifice my own life to save hers. If you have children and you wouldn't do the same, I hope someone calls CPS on you.
The funny thing is, you keep saying things like this- "If the democrats win this election while running a candidate that’s twiddling his thumbs over multiple genocides, then the next time they’re presiding over one, they’re going to have solid data that tells them that they don’t have to bother themselves about it because their voter base will elect them anyway."
And yet you have clearly not done a single thing about it except berate people on the internet. You have given zero solutions. You obviously did not help to primary him.
Frankly, I'm tired of an armchair quarterback telling me that I'm in favor of genocide because I'm trying to save my daughter's life. The fucking gall you have.
A lot of words there to tilt at a strawman.
The inescapable fact is that you're completely unable to provide any justification as to why re-electing Biden while he's failing/not bothering to stop a genocide doesn't signal support from the democratic voter base. (No you don't have to be a registered democrat to count as "part of their voter base", and I don't know why you would think otherwise.)
As I said several comments ago:
Your one response has been to attempt to put some kind of imaginary guilt on my head, which as I've repeatedly pointed out, changes absolutely nothing about what I've said.
You know full well that at no point have I ever told you you support genocide, but you are inescapably voting in support of it by voting for Biden.
You still don't get that I don't give a shit about the Democratic voter base or what re-electing Biden tells them. All I care about is saving my daughter's life. That's it.
And you don't have to tell me that I'm in favor of genocide. You've been implying it the entire time.
So, are you claiming that if the United States stops sending some military aid to Israel, Netanyahu will be unable to continue military operations in Gaza? Because if so, you are sorely mistaken. Israel's military is perfectly self-sufficient, and if you think they particularly care about some UN resolutions, you need to talk to some Israelis.
American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome. Joe Biden could not unilaterally stop Israeli operations in Gaza unless he declared war on Israel and deployed troops, and I can assure you that isn't going to be happening. Not to mention, China, Russia, India, Europe, and all of South America also exist. Americans do not unilaterally decide everything that happens or doesn't happen in the world. We're not that important.
The United States was the sole veto of a ceasefire 20 days ago.
If it wasn't for US support of Israel, Israel would be north Egypt.
And you think that, if only the US hadn't vetoed it, Russia and China would have invaded Israel to stop it?
Considering how Egypt treats Palestinians, one would think that would be something you wouldn't want.
It's okay to oppress Palestinians as long as you don't kill them? Apartheid is a good thing?
https://www.newarab.com/features/no-recognition-no-rights-palestinians-egypt
Do you realize that you're arguing against yourself here? Claiming that "it wouldn't make a difference whether the US supported Israel or not," makes it look so much fucking worse that Biden is refusing to drop support for this genocide. This is incredibly tone deaf.