Following the other thread (550 upvotes and 366 comments at the moment: https://lemmy.world/post/16211417), one of the complaints that people had what that some communities only exist on lemmy.ml and don't have alternatives on other instances.

Let's discuss this and see if we can organize together.

I suggest to have one topic per comment so that is is easier to discuss.

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[–] rglullis 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Nothing in this discussion is against Lemmy developers, and no one is trying to silence their voices. It's just about creating/finding alternatives for those that are not interested in interacting with that instance.

Also, me calling you out is not "blackmailing", just me ensuring that downvotes like yours don't become a pile-on.

[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works -2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

.. Do you think I can just keep the last comment in mind or something?

The discussion takes place in a post linking https://lemmy.world/post/16211417 . Surely that brings it into scope? The linked post begins

I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy’s massive tankie censorship problem

That does seem hostile to me. As does the drive to try and split communities

Also, me calling you out is not “blackmailing”, just me ensuring that downvotes like yours don’t become a pile-on.

You have to be kidding me. Why would tagging people who downvoted a post prevent a pile-on of downvotes? Is it a lemmy bug? Or is it that some people who would want to downvote your post would be intimidated by being 'called out'? Maybe my English is bad but vote->get called-out seems to fit 'blackmail' just fine.

[–] rglullis 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Do you think I can just keep the last comment in mind or something?

YES! It's not like votes are worth anything here, but one of the reasons that voting mechanisms become completely useless as a way to signal quality conversations is when people blindly upvote/downvote everything just because they don't like what is being said. People that do what you are doing end up showing more about themselves than about the one posting the comment that you didn't like.

As does the drive to try and split communities

Would you feel so defensive about it if the communities were being hosted in a right-wing instance?

Why would tagging people who downvoted a post prevent a pile-on of downvotes?

Because it makes people think about what about the comment they are downvoting, instead of reflexively clicking on a button.

vote->get called-out seems to fit ‘blackmail’

It does not fit at all. I'm not trying to get anything out of you for my own benefit, and I am not doing it to submit you into compliance.

[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

YES! It’s not like votes are worth anything here, but one of the reasons that voting mechanisms become completely useless as a way to signal quality conversations is when people blindly upvote/downvote everything just because they don’t like what is being said. People that do what you are doing end up showing more about themselves than about the one posting the comment that you didn’t like.

Indeed voting is worthless here, you do not get blocked from posting like reddit so there's no silencing effect. Voting has always been about whether you agree or not with an opinion, not about the quality of a conversation (an abstract concept, realistically immeasurable). Yes reddit had/has the Reddiquette, it was not ever actually followed by the users. Turns out you can't just redefine thing on a whim.

Would you feel so defensive about it if the communities were being hosted in a right-wing instance?

Right-wing as in neo-nazi ? I would not join a community in that server. Right wing as in pro-Israelor pro-capitalism? I do participate and get in meaningless flame wars when their callousness gets the best of me. I will not hold it against communities that do not deal with these issues and are just hosted on that instance.

Because it makes people think about what about the comment they are downvoting, instead of reflexively clicking on a button.

Think of what?

It does not fit at all. I’m not trying to get anything out of you for my own benefit, and I am not doing it to submit you into compliance.

Does not voting against your post not count as compliance?

[–] rglullis 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Voting has always been about whether you agree or not with an opinion

No, that is absolutely false. Before Reddit's Eternal September, voting was used as a way to signal quality content and it pretty much was followed by a good majority of the people.

Right-wing as in neo-nazi? I would not join a community in that server.

And this is precisely what people are talking about here. You might not see that way, but tankies are extremists. There are people that don't want to join any conversation there, and therefore this is why they want alternatives.

Think of what?

It makes they think "what is so bad about this comment that it really warrants the downvote.

Does not voting against your post not count as compliance?

I didn't ask you to remove the downvote. I asked you only to explain your reasoning, which is now quite clearly faulty.

[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No, that is absolutely false. Before Reddit’s Eternal September, voting was used as a way to signal quality content and it pretty much was followed by a good majority of the people.

Ah, yes the good old times. Just don't take off your nostalgia-tinted glasses.

And this is precisely what people are talking about here. You might not see that way, but tankies are extremists. There are people that don’t want to join any conversation there, and therefore this is why they want alternatives.

The issue with Nazism is not that it is extreme, that it skews too much to the right. Nazism is inherently evil because it claims certain peoples are not worth existing and should be eliminated.

It makes they think "what is so bad about this comment that it really warrants the downvote.

I wonder what could make you think of honesty.

I didn’t ask you to remove the downvote. I asked you only to explain your reasoning, which is now quite clearly faulty.

Of course not. You wanted to make an example of me and the other guy to prevent a pile-on, that is more people downvoting you. You are blackmailing them by showing them what could happen to them. Obviously it's not working because it's just some posts on an internet forum.

[–] rglullis 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I just pointed out "the old times" to respond to your idea that "it has always been this way".

It's funny how young people think that the world has been invented the moment they were born. Everything that came before that can be simply erased.

that it skews too much to the right.

Ok. According to you, extremism and othering is okay when done by a leftist.

Thank you very much for showing your true colors. You can go now...

[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I just pointed out “the old times” to respond to your idea that “it has always been this way”. It’s funny how young people think that the world has been invented the moment they were born. Everything that came before that can be simply erased.

I was born way way before reddit existed. Voting is even older. People may claim they are unbiased etc, use fancy debating terms etc, but in the end they vote (whether via explicit voting mechanism ala reddit/lemmy or +1 posts) based on their opinions. In a lot of cases such as discussing nazism for example it makes no sense.

that it skews too much to the right.

You can't read? The actual full quote is

The issue with Nazism is not that it is extreme, that it skews too much to the right.

maybe you think you saw a 'it's' after the comma, maybe you think that the negative ('not') does not apply to the sentence after the comma (incorrectly) but most likely you are again being dishonest.

My position is explicitly that I do not care about left and right. I do not abhor Nazism because of it's position on a left-right axis but because it considers people vermin that have to be exterminated.

Thank you very much for showing your true colors.

'The pot calling the kettle black' was never more appropriate. Though I suppose a pants-on-fire liar would be mostly red.

You can go now…

Thanks for your permission your highness.

[–] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Don't mean to be a dick, but that was genuinely a very satisfying little internet spat. It was like watching a tennis match with you two volleying back and forth, and even the insults were pretty classy.

I think you each made several solid points, and I was brought slightly closer to forming an opinion regarding the public upvote/downvote system. This is likely to become a significant point of contention in the future, when Lemmy competitors will potentially seek to differentiate themselves by obscuring the visibility of votes.

Anyway, just remember that there are other people reading the thread who got something out of your contribution, even if you couldn't come to a personal understanding with each other.

[–] Blaze@reddthat.com 2 points 5 months ago

Nice one indeed

[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I think most internet arguments are like that, the opposing parties are trying to argue their case for the neutrals, people who have not really made up their mind on the issue.

After all nobody likes to be 'corrected' by random strangers. Additionally it's clearly an important issue for rgullis, he has written some software for lemmy (think a migration tool), has his own instance (with communities, not just to keep track of downvotes). You would expect him to have though his position out (according to his beliefs) and thus not be easily swayed.

I am just stubborn, perhaps it would be better to ignore being 'called out' but... no.

[–] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 months ago

Like I said, it was a good healthy discussion, you have differing opinions on the topic and you expressed them clearly and respectfully. Nothing wrong with that. I'm also a stubborn mfer