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Donald Trump shares stage with rightwing activist who's discussing stoning gay people to death
(www.lgbtqnation.com)
this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2024
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Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don't hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they're bigoted, not because they're secretly the thing they're bigoted against.
Religion isn't something intrinsic about a person. If you hate the fact that you're a Muslim, you can opt out.
You cannot opt out being queer.
Okay then, you don't hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it's regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Yeah, nobody says that people opposed to disability rights are secretly suffering from an invisible disability.
Again people don't choose disabilities
We choose them as much as we choose to be gay. And when they’re invisible we can hide them similarly well in my experience
Nah it's a tale as old as time, we used to call it "the one who smelt it dealt it" but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
Can you name another example where bigotry against a traditionally marginalized minority is virtually always claimed to be coming from that minority?
I don't care to sit here all day thinking about it and I'm not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you're just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I'm saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you." It's a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
How about "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you" is that better?
If you're in a room full of people, and you "lose" something, the person that helps look for it the most, the one who won't give up and is very curious about where your item "went" is the thief.
And yet you can't think of one other marginalized group of people where every time a finger is pointed at them, people claim the person doing the pointing is part of that group.
Curious that you don't find that problematic despite having no other examples.
Self-hate is a funny thing.
I wonder if that's a "law" yet ala Goodwin, Winslow, Murphy, etc. "The hate a person has for a group is proportionate to the amount of "denied/repressed belonging" that same person has to said group."
See, this sounds like you're saying queer people are the cause of homophobia, which is exactly what my point was.
That's not my intention and I'm sorry you took it that way.
I believe that was not your intention, but that is what makes it so problematic. When you suggest that most or all homophobes are queer, you're suggesting that homophobia is an internal problem, not an external one, even if you don't realize that's what you're doing. Because the inference to be made there is that if you really hate queer people, you can't be cishet.
I believe homophobia (and basically all other hate) is mostly an internal (mental) problem, you don't?
Ah I get it now, I guess I disagree with that inference but I see how it follows. More honestly I would say that most people aren't 100% straight/cishet and sexual fluidity is extremely common (though we're only becoming aware of it now) so the inference would be correct and most people wouldn't be homophobic.
Internal as in only involving queer people.
The point is it gives any cishet bigot an excuse to be homophobic because they aren't queer so it's okay. It's not bigotry.
If we're following it logically, they hate themselves at least in part because they're queer; it's self-hatred but they can be a self-hating bigot, they're not mutually exclusive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_oppression
Again, this suggests that you cannot be cishet and bigoted against queer people. That the only people bigoted against queer people are themselves queer. Therefore anything someone who is cishet says about queer people no matter how offensive cannot be homophobic by virtue of having been said by a cishet person.
That's just basic extrapolation from such reasoning.
No, because the moment they say something homophobic they're queer thus not cishet, though they can still be bigots, it's a Catch-22, that's the point, to call the bigot the thing they hate.
Except that the person saying the homophobic thing knows they aren't queer. Which means what they said can't possibly be homophobic.
Let me put it this way- there is zero evidence that Charlie Kirk is anything but cishet. Now... we can draw attention to the issue of bigotry by just pointing out that he's a bigot or we can put the blame of bigotry on queer people themselves in some silly attempt at a gotcha.
I would say that the former is both less childish and less harmful to queer people.
Do they though do their peers? Does anyone? Again sexual fluidity is extremely common throughout our lives.
I honestly can't imagine him being with a woman so I disagree.
Yes.
I would say we put it on the bigot that said it, Charlie Kirk and not on any broad groups at all.
It's fun to be childish sometimes.
I'm not sure it harms queer people at all Squid.
See, again, you're saying that the only people who are homophobic are queer and it's no different from saying the only people who are ableist are disabled or the only people who are antisemitic are Jewish. I wish you could understand that.
I can understand how it could be interpreted that way but that's not what I mean at all.
Out of curiosity, what percentage of homophobia do you think is caused by latent homosexuality?
It doesn't matter if it's not what you mean unless you express what you mean explicitly.
And people don't say that explicitly. They just say that every time someone says something homophobic in the news, they're closeted. Every time.
And how the hell am I supposed to know what percentage? More than zero and less than 100?
I'm guessing closer to zero than 100 for the same reason there are antisemitic Jews out there but the vast majority of antisemites aren't Jewish. Can you point to a time that you've suggested that an antisemite is actually a Jew? And if not, why not if it's so common for homophobes to be queer?
Seems pretty relevant to the discussion, 10% is way different than 90%.
But you're just guessing.
What reason is that?
I'm sure I never said that, I usually call antisemites Nazis/bigot/fuckhead or something similar.
We've already been over this. I suspect we're not going to come to an agreement on this,, have a nice night Squid.
We haven't already been over this. All you've said is sexuality is a spectrum.
Disability is a spectrum. Everyone has their own little disabilities. So if you use an ableist word like the R-word, you're disabled. Based on your own reasoning. And you still don't see it.
Not true, pedophiles often fall in this category and there is even more evidence of this to justify correlation
Sorry, you're saying that people who hate pedophiles are themselves pedophiles?
Not at all... and looking at the rest of your comments I don't really know what you are fishing for but I don't want to play your game
I'm not "fishing for" anything. Please don't make ridiculous accusations about me. If that isn't what you meant, what did you mean?