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‘No pride in occupation’: queer Palestinians on ‘pink-washing’ in Gaza conflict
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 16 Jun 2024
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Several times now, I have seen pro-Israelis say to people who are queer that they shouldn't support Palestinians, because if they were in charge, they would oppress queer people. But I would say being queer and oppressed would be a hell of a lot better than being queer and dead and I would also say that most queer people care a lot more about the genocide of anyone than they do whether or not queer people in the area where the genocide is occurring would be treated well by the people being murdered if they were in charge.
It’s not as if the Jewish view of homosexuality is significantly different from Islam’s. If the only proof they have of anti queer sentiment comes from there fact that there are radical Islamists among them then that same brush could be used to paint Israel just as easily.
It comes from the idea that neighboring Muslim countries have made homosexuality a capital crime. But that doesn't mean that an independent Palestine will do the same, and even if it does, there has to be a Palestine for that to be an issue.
As vile as trying to pinkwash Israeli genocide is, concerns about Palestinian persecution of LGBT people are rooted primarily in current behaviors of Palestinian society at large towards LGBT people.
That is not usually what I hear when I hear this argument being made. I hear, "look at Saudi Arabia. How do you think a gay person would be treated in a free Palestine?"
It can get quite ugly even in unfree Palestine, unfortunately
Okay, that may be, but that is not why those people are making that argument because I do not believe they are aware of that. And one murder, tragic as it may be, does not indicate that a free Palestine would make being queer an official capital crime.
There's a UN report on LGBT persecution in occupied Palestine. It's not pretty. I'm about to head out, but if you want it when I get back, I can dig it up for you.
Again, occupying (and genociding) Palestine is not the answer, of course. But one should have a clear view of what kind of treatment LGBT people will receive in a free Palestine. That is to say, largely the treatment they are receiving now, in occupied Palestine.
At least in a free Palestine the Palestinians would have the right of mobility intact (they could leave) whereas that's not possible under Israeli occupation.
Oh yes, definitely. It's a case where choosing the greater evil (Israeli occupation and genocide) helps no one. But we should be clear-eyed about the situation, is all.
That’s a more coherent argument I suppose but it’s a pretty racist one. There’s no shortage of Christian majority nations where homosexuality is criminalized. Would the people making that argument feel the same way about Ukraine for example?
I agree. I don't mean to suggest it's a valid argument.
Apologies I didn’t mean to imply you were supporting the argument. I could have phrased it better to make that clearer.
I didn't think you were, I just wanted to clarify. We're good.
Homosexuality is not criminalized in Ukraine
It’s a Christian majority though, which is in line with the argument as presented.
It's far more friendly to LGBT people than other Christian countries like Serbia or Russia
The argument is “Muslim majority countries tend to criminalize homosexuality so you shouldn’t support Palestine because it’s likely to do the same”. The current state of gay rights there isn’t relevant to the argument and not what I’m trying to draw a parallel to with the comparison.
No, the argument is Hamas is anti-LGBT already
Maybe that’s the one you want to make but it’s not the one I was commenting on.
Yes it was you were just trying to be manipulative with your answer, hamas are actively homophobic and part of an islamist movement which is incredibly homophobic - pretending not to understand this is absurd.
I have never claimed that they weren’t those things. You are arguing against what you want me to say, rather than what i actually wrote.
Sure, you can defeat the strawman argument. But can we attempt at discussing the strongman argument?
If you want to discuss that go right ahead. I have not made any claim that contradicts that and have no interest in arguing against it. I suggest you do so with someone who has and does.
Of course they would
Cool. Let's maybe not kill every Palestinian and find out if that's true for sure rather than make assumptions?
Let's not pretend those are the only choices.
While Israel is trying to kill every Palestinian, I'd say those are, in fact, the only choices.
They are not, in fact, trying to kill every Palestinian
Oh, just the children?