this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2024
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I was going to write a reply to that guy about how linux doesn't work for the common man, but then you come in and write shakespear level articulation that blows away my tiny brain cell reply.
It's just such a complete analysis of the situation. The only thing missing is how linux requires you to use the terminal. Yes, REQUIRES. People can say it doesn't all they want, but go on any self help guide, and any problem you have, is "step 1, open terminal".
What would you say to someone who doesn't know what terminal is?
"Ok, open terminal?"
"Whats that?"
"Its like a command line, but better"
"Whats a command line?"
And this is why 96% of people AREN'T using linux. Most windows users don't understand how windows works. Most drivers don't understand how cars work. And linux you HAVE TO be a mechanic to use linux. Because unlike windows and mac, linux isn't designed to be used by idiots. And most of the world are idiots. Hell, I'm an idiot.
And until linux can fix itself FOR the user, no user will even take a look. Even if there were a single distro that did all that, you'd have to convince people "this linux isn't like the other linux". It's the main reason that even though Android is linux, it stays far far away from that branding. It doesn't want the linux stink.
And from what I've seen, every developer WANTS linux to be hard to use. Like a right of passage. "I had to endure these learning curves, and so shall you!"
I have heard this argument for over 20 years.. "You have to use the terminal in Linux, so user hostile".
Well, try to do ANY windows sysadmin tasks without Powershell.. See how far that gets you. Need to manage Exchange? Powershell. Need to change some network settings? Powershell.. It is even getting more and more unavoidable. Now Powershell doesn't even have a good terminal environment, sane parameters or good usability. And a general lack of documentation for all the obscure incantations.
In the meantime KDE on Linux is wonderful, fully integrated with the system, easy software maintenance (on Kubuntu for example) and with a sane settings menu... You hardly need a terminal at all. Try to find that in Windows.
So sorry, this argument is either invalid, out of date or Microsoft is even worse.
I've been using Windows personally and professionally since 3.1, and Windows 11 was the last straw that finally got me to jump over to Linux for my home PC. I hate what Windows has become but I've got a lot of history with it. My experience with Linux (Mint FWIW) has been as smooth as it ever was in Windows, neither of which was perfect. I'm a definite convert from Windows and would encourage most people to consider taking the leap themselves.
I gotta disagree with you about modern Powershell and terminals in Windows, though. Good terminal? Windows Terminal has been around for years now. It's fast and functional. Whether Powershell's parameters are "sane" is probably a matter of taste, but I'm definitely willing to stick up for its usability. Yes, the parameter names are much more verbose, but they all get tab completion out of the box, and you don't have to type the full names at all, just enough of the start of the name to be unambiguous. For personal automation scripts, I think Powershell is way ahead of Bash. Parameters get bound automatically without needing to write
for/caseloops withgetopts. You can write comments at the top of the file that automatically get integrated into Powershell's help system. Sending objects through the standard pipeline means you spend a lot less time and code just parsing text.I don't know what powershell is. I just use control panel. Even though I have Windows 7, I have it laid out like Windows XP, because thats what I know.
So if I wanted to do something in network, I go to network settings.
Ha, then stay on Windows 7/10 or you'll lose your control panel soon..
Well if you like control panel, I've got good news for you. Upgrade to Windows 8/10/11 and you'll get two of them. :)
8 was a piece of trash when it was released. 11 was a piece of trash when it released. And now 11 is bleeding over into 10.
Windows 7 forever!!!!
You do not need to use PS to manage network settings. And no normal user has any clue that exchange even exists much less needing to modify it. And saying that PS doesn’t have good documentation is laughable comparing it to bash. Listen, I hate windows just as much as you all do, but it is most definitely more user friendly than any Linux distribution out there. No windows user ever needs to even touch PS much less program network settings with it. Literally the fact that you need to even open the app at all is a massive fucking downside to Linux. Users don’t want to type out “weird incantations”. They want to click a button, select from a dropdown, or in the case of many many many drivers, do absolutely nothing at all.
The fact that you had to call out a specific nonstandard desktop environment to support your case for Linux being easy to use is exactly the point that several other people in this thread are trying to make.
I'm sorry, you're arguing in bad faith or have a huge case of Stockholm Syndrome.
But, just look at their Troubleshooting documentation where they tell you to drop to the terminal.
My point is that Microsoft has stopped making new buttons and dropdowns and refer you to new Powershell incantations for most new settings. Just look at how many options the new "Settings" app offers compared to the deprecated Control Panel.
You switched from talking about network settings to now talking about troubleshooting!!!! Can’t even have a consistent narrative! I mean at least try dude.
I really don’t understand the objection to using a terminal to get things done. It’s just a window that you can type text commands into. You don’t even have to come up with the commands on your own, you find the ones that solve the problem on the internet, copy and paste, and boom problem fixed. How is this different from looking up a solution to a Windows problem that walks you with a series of pictures through using Regedit or Group Policy Editor, only instead of pasting text into a terminal, you have to click through dozens of menus, trees, and tabs to find the setting you need to change? You’re still looking up solutions online in either case, but the Windows solutions require navigating windows with dozens of mouse clicks versus copying and pasting some text in Linux.
vs
Me: My fan doesn't work.
Internet: To install fan copy this command into terminal.
Me: does that.
Computer: error.
Internet: ????
Me: ?????
And 5 years later I still can't turn on the fan.
Is that supposed to be a real example? It’s just that fans are controlled by the BIOS, not the OS, so fixing a fan problem would usually involve either updating your firmware, which I have never seen done via a terminal command, or changing a BIOS setting, which could involve rebooting and holding a key like F2 to enter the BIOS settings menu (not Linux, usually a quasi-graphical mouse-driven UI) to change something there.
Well I'm trying to post the 2 line code to you, but Lemmy won't even let me paste it here.
Thats what I'm told to do. My raspberry pi says it took.....but my fan isn't on.
Take the spaces out.
Wait, this is for a Raspberry Pi? I thought we were talking about Linux as a desktop OS. You wouldn’t run Windows on a Raspberry Pi, so while I’m sorry you’re having trouble with your Pi’s fans, I don’t see how that’s relevant to the merits of Linux as a desktop OS.
That's a marketing problem, not a functionality problem. The terminal isn't really hard to use.
People used BASIC easily back in the 80's. My mom did it back then, and she isn't tech savvy.
I've been trying to learn it for 15 years. The only thing I've learned is that sudo stands for super user. Outside of that, I've learned nothing about how to use terminal other than copy/pasting other peoples commands.
If you've been unable to learn some basic command line in 15 years perhaps computing is not your forte.
Well, not linux. I do just fine on windows 7.
For most cases, you need to use the package manager (apt is the standard for Debian-based) . You also need 'grep' to select a specific phrase sometimes.
But that problem normally occur when you are using proprietary software. You'll need to download packages (wget), add repository packages and run shell scripts for most proprietary software, and I think most people would use copy-paste in those scenarios.
.........do what now?
BTW sudo stands for substitute user.
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