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"We Have Lost All Credibility”: Hala Rharrit on Quitting State Dept. & Ending U.S. Complicity in Gaza
(www.democracynow.org)
this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2024
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I really want to know what the actual reason is that we're so boneheaded, so obstinate, so relentless in our "support" for Isreal no matter how fucking crazy they get...
Is it really just more money for defense contractors? It's it really fear of AIPAC? Is it even more fucking absurd and we have actual Christian dominionists trying to bring Armageddon whether it's the Democrats or Republicans?
I just don't understand it...
tldr: the US is still supporting Israel is because Israel has historically been extremely beneficial to US interests.
full:
The reason is that Israel has been a steadfast ally in advancing and defending us interests for half a century, and there is no one else in the Middle East who could play that role half as effectively or reliably.
there was zero chance of the US immediately cutting off aid after 50 years of aid, especially while dozens of other countries have also been providing aid and are still providing aid to Israel.
that was never an option and should not have been an expectation from the public, who only has that expectation because most people have only recently learned about the Palestinian invasion by Israel that's been happening for over half a century.
One year is not much time internationally or diplomatically. it's not much time for intelligence agencies to determine what is happening, especially in the fog of war, and it isn't much time for effects of actions to be seen, no matter what actions are taken.
in israel, The US has an attack dog to deal with US enemies in the Middle East, and now the attack dog has broken its leash and isn't responding to commands. Netanyahu is aging, centralized power, and is acting literally insane.
while I have been loyal, this completely separate nation has saliently chosen to have been loyal, although they were and are under no obligation to be loyal to the demands of the United States, as is now being seen.
it's only been one year, and regardless of what you hear, diplomatically the US is continually trying different tactics to stem the violent efforts of a nation with plenty of resources that has no obligation to listen to the US other than continued financial support, that it has plenty of already and has many other sources of aid.
So to counter basically your whole point: You know how Reagan stopped the Israeli bombing of Beirut in 20 minutes with a phone call in 1982? That's how someone who actually wants Israel to stop does it. Biden isn't stopping them because he doesn't want to, not because his administration is "diplomatically the US is continually trying different tactics to stem the violent efforts of a nation...".
Don't defend genocide support, it's not a good look.
I don't think you can defend inaction regarding genocide as "diplomatically the US is continually trying different tactics to stem the violent efforts of a nation".
The difference in circumstances is that, unlike 1940s, or any other period until 2010s, it was visible within months by historians and other civilians, without a doubt that what was happening was genocide. Because of the internet, photo equipment and general speed of communication, inability to delete communications. None of this "One year is not much time internationally or diplomatically. it’s not much time for intelligence agencies to determine what is happening", they knew very well.
Israel has been running a mega propaganda machine especially since the start of october events, ordering news sources how they should cover the situation. If there weren't enough red flags, that is a big one.
I think the conclusion should be that the relevant parts of US gov are either weak and careless, either exceptionally naive and old, or! there is something malicious that has been happening (and this seems most likely, considering the amount of propaganda).
But I guess going back a bit and throwing away all ideas of discussion, you sure like to ad-hominem the other commenter.
All i follow on youtube are archaeological channels, and i was surprised by the sudden influx of videos on israel the very week israel started attacking. I noticed one channel that was hosting an israeli co-host stopped collaborating very soon, and months later posted a very nuanced, very politely angry video. But the number of videos establishing the legitimacy of israel all at once at that time cannot be anything but planned. Even National Geographic had a video out on the origins of Israel, at a timing that is so very suspect.
Interesting, wouldnt have thought they went for youtube channels as well.
My knowledge is that especially national news channels were targeted by Israeli "ambassadors" telling what is happening in the war and how it should be covered. Which is just complete utter disregard for journalism; just propaganda.
Israel targets all angles of media. Have a look at reddit and you'll easily find many pro-Israel bots. I remember once two different bots posting letter by letter the same comment in the same thread, some 8 hours apart. And that was ten years ago.
It is important to note though that it is not just Israel doing that. Any larger power has some sort of programs to influence public opinion and spread propaganda. Just that some get called out, like Russian bots.
that, and murdering all the journalists.
I did notice this "we need Israel strategic location" as a way to justify the support to Israel.
This fails quickly with any checking of what is happening, and if anything it shine a light on the hypocrisy of the government.
The truth is, most of the US politicians have "AIPAC" guy and getting paid to make sure nothing happens including the prisedent.
We dont need Israel for much of anything. We have an air base in jordan a few miles from the Israel border. We have turkey, Cyprus, the UAE, bases all over, even inside Syria, really everywhere except for inside Israel. To our military Israel is completely useless, and a potent risk of "accidental" SAM launches.
And if anyone seriously thinks the lack of bases inside their territory means They work for us, instead of the reality which is our politicians work for them, then you're just disregarding the proof thats clearly there even by the pattern of base presences, and the fact that democratic politicians are roped into a far right wing genocide. The idea that they are our "ally", that they are our "aircraft carrier in the middle east" and that they are a proxy for the US just doesnt match any of these facts. We're being fed Israeli propoganda and a lot of you are lapping it up because its most convenient for you.
"I don't think you can defend inaction regarding genocide"
have you stopped paying taxes that are funding Israel?
what is your defense regarding your inaction by rejecting your complicit funding of genocide?
"...within months by historians and other civilians, without a doubt that what was happening was genocide"
close, what happened was people started paying attention because the executions and bombings were happening more frequently than usual.
anyone who was aware of and understood the history of Israel's colonization of Palestine for the past 50 years and they're complete Power disparity agrees it was and is "without a doubt" a genocide years before 2023.
it's just that most people only recently started paying attention.
"they knew very well."
Yes, this is what I said. it invalidates your next few assumptions:
"I think the conclusion should be that the relevant parts of US gov are either weak and careless, either exceptionally naive and old, or! there is something malicious that has been happening"
these are the simplest and most comfortable conclusions for someone unversed in politics to imagine.
blame it on simple, fundamental tragic and all-encompassing character flaws that you importantly don't imagine apply to yourself, storybook infirmities that simply need to be remedied and then all of history and politics can be swept aside for a beautiful future, in which every world leader clasps the hands of every other.
something that you can point out and say "well that isn't me, that isn't a problem that we've all contributed to, this is the out of touch portions of my government"
but this isn't a unique situation, this isn't the only genocide currently happening, genocides don't occur are allowed to continue because of carelessness.
this is another terrible situation among countless others, all of which are important and complex, that is not happening because the US government has some fundamental climactic "weak", "careless", "old" or "naive" flaw.
not least importantly because the US government does not have the power. you imagine it to have over other sovereign Nations.
as for your hopeful reasonings:
If they were careless, they would have believed the initial assessment and fabrications of Israel, sent US soldiers in and destroyed the rest of Palestine.
If they were weak or naive, they would have buckled under the first campus protest and stopped providing all aid to Israel.
if they were old... well, the government official you are likely most familiar with is old, but experience is not something to be discarded or sneered at.
these are fanciful single remedies that are irrelevant to the the complicated historical reality currently unfolding.
"there is something malicious that has been happening"
yes...Israel is concluding a genocide.
nefarious? not anymore so than it has been for the past 50 years.
Israel's military superiority and support of US interests is valuable. despite their most recent actions, it is still valuable.
that assessment is not made carelessly or naively, and support for and departures from normal US policy regarding Israel and Palestine are not being made by weak people.
"throwing away all ideas of discussion"
you sure scribble down a lot of ideas for someone throwing away all ideas of discussion.
"you sure like to ad-hominem the other commenter"
their comments and ideas, not the "commenter".
I don't fault people for their ability or level of reasoning, but I do fault their presentation of unconsidered whimsical invective, baseless personal attacks and lack of respect for context, sources, facts and discussion.
particularly if they forget or ignore what the point they are supposedly responding to is, or respond to facts with demonstrably false assumptions or attacks they don't bother to even briefly support with evidence or logic.
I agree that I could be more gracious in the likely event that their inconsiderate attacks or ignorance or disregard of the facts can be tied directly to their fundamental personal abilities.
I have been thinking about this recently.
Bullshit. You're completely unnecessarily and unhelpfully attacking the commenter with remarks like that. At least have the guts to own up to it.
This is not the most popular opinion on Lemmy these days, but it's still an immense stretch to want to call the war in Gaza a genocide.
If Israel wanted to kill off the Gazans, they would just have to start carpet bombing certain areas. At this rate, it would take them 50 years to do it, which would be immensely stupid.
What Israel has done is turn up the dial with regards to acceptable collateral damage - just like the US did themselves to break costly sieges like Fallujah, Mosul and Raqqa.
No-one who is appaled at the civilian casualties has actually ever come up with a valid alternative method to eradicate IS or in this case Hamas or Hezbollah without causing any or even less civilian casualties. The US government knows and accepts this, so in public they'll play the pacifist while in reality they're accepting the 'necessary' violence.
Not sure where you're pulling this out of.
They literally are carpet bombing civillians, for a while now, as well as brutally blocking any humanitarian aid (such as food). They are literally using starvation to exterminate the Gaza strip, Nazi efficiency.
That and more, and Bibbi himself said with biblical flair: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass" Not out of context. The context was the "war" with Gaza.
Even with a minimal amount of history taught at school you can piece together a very very very Nazi way of thinking. Everything is Hamas, Even the children, the hospitals, all infrastructure conducive to life and order. "Keep killing all leaders, contain, and eradicate with any means (such as starvation)"
Just by numbers, the Hamas attack that "started this" was 1.5k (Hamas) vs 1k (Israel) dead, which Israel knew about and was informed many times by intelligence agencies, and happened by a breach of a wall that is lined with 24/7 monitoring, they just chose not to be prepared, in a strong "Never let a good crisis go to waste." Churchillian way. This attack "caused" Israel to start carpet bombing, and murdering indiscriminately (even shooting children included) and killing 50k Palestinians (not taking into account the wounded, suffering, and deathly malnutritioned).
But hell, you don't need to listen to the logic of some random guy on the internet, why not just read this, ICC formally declaring the factual reality: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state
I think it is high time that we acknowledged the elephant in the room.
"God's chosen people" = "ubermensch"
"God's promised land" = "lebensraum"
Do you have any source on the carpet bombing you claim they've been doing for a while?
If Israel wanted to do a genocide, they could just roll out the carpet bombs and spread them over the refugee tent cities. They'd easily kill 50-100k every few hours. That way, it wouldn't take 50 years.
But in reality, we see 50-100 deaths per day. That just doesn't jive
Reality doesn't care about what "jives" for you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip
The most perspective-enlightening comparison is probably "By late April 2024 it was estimated that Israel had dropped over 70,000 tons of bombs over Gaza, surpassing the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, and London combined during World War II.[4][5]".
If that doesn't fit your carpet bombing definition, I give up.
The normal definition of carpet bombing is dropping a 'carpet' of bombs over an area all at once. That's where the name comes from, anyway.
If you're just saying they dropped a lot of bombs, why would you want to call that 'carpet bombing' ?
"they dropped a whole bunch of bombs, yes, but nowhere did it say they dropped them all simultaneously. if the word 'carpet' doesnt fit, you must acquit israel of genocide"
-nonailsleft, exact quote rn
Why would you need to lie about them carpet bombing civilians as proof for genocide if you're convinced that's the case without it?
do you actually think the potential misapplication of the word carpet is the thing that makes it a genocide or not? let me help you with that
the proof is in the genocidal language and intent, the mass starvation, the indiscriminate targeting of civilians and infrastructure, the manipulation of journalism, the unhesitating violation of human rights and international law. its a genocide because of the systematic erasure of a people, a culture. 'carpet' is very obviously used in a figurative sense to describe "a lot, like in world war two" above, not the technical sense your strictly literal pedantic argument would require to have any pretense of validity. "lie about carpet bombing"
Carpet bombing in WW2 wasn't called that because they dropped a large number of single bombs over a country over a large period, it was called that because it's a technique where you try to cover an area with a dense carpet of bombs all at once
I refer to the entirety of my previous comment, and especially my comment before that which mocked you for this.
I think you could write 100 comments but none of them would support your claim that Israel is carpet bombing civilians
I refer to two comments ago in which I explained how neither I nor the person who originally used the word 'carpet' were claiming that israel was "carpet" bombing civilians, try actually reading the 2nd half of the 2nd paragraph of that comment. This subject is a red herring and a very very stupid waste of my time. Further attempts to engage on the subject will be taken as evidence of bad faith on your part.
the person obviously does not know that "carpet" bombing means anything other than "a lot, like in world war 2". this pedantic bullshit you're trying to pull does not fly, nor does it argue against the fact of genocide if true. i have already answered literally all of this before. it is a red herring, you are not arguing in good faith, and i am now blocking you, you disingenuous troll.
There is 50-100 deaths a day that are recorded. Thanks to Israels deliberate destruction of the health system, fire fighters, journalists and other civilian infrastructure there is many more unrecorded deaths. And this is just people "missing". On top there is all the indirect deaths that already occured or are inevitable from the total annihilation of infrastructure. The conservative estimates range from 200.000-300.000 people killed in Gaza. That is 10-15% of the total population.
I agree that there would be unrecorded deaths, but I don't think Hamas has any reason to underestimate their number by a factor of five (5). There's still a lot of structure and quite a large (international) presence of aid and medical workers, and journalists. One can use numbers from food distribution or the polio vaccinations that would easily corroborate 10% 'missing' population.
My answer is vague because: 1-I wasn't answering the OP, I was replying to you. 2-I don't like to engage with the "they're trying but it's so so complicated" sort of genocide apologia much because it's a pain in the ass.
I'll just say: Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and the easiest way to falsify a statement is counterexample, so I got you a counterexample. Now can you state exactly what different between the 1980s and today generates rhe difference we see today? If anything Israel was more important to US interests back then due to their role in the cold war. Also, state department employees, who are presumably well versed in international relations, are resigning. Your framing that only ignorant layman are angry with the Biden administration is patently false.
Edit: I forgot to mention: Drop the ad hominem. Reported.