this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2023
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The Israeli government is really happy to rope you and all other Jewish people outside of Israel along though. And too many unfortunately play that role happily.
See? This is what I mean. If I just announced that I was Jewish to someone like you, you'd make me justify it by denouncing Israel. I shouldn't have to do that. It should not be assumed that just because I'm a Jew, I support Israel. Frankly, that's a form of racism.
They're saying you should blame Israel for that, not random people trying to find out who's who
Why not blame both? Why should they be trying to find out who's who. If you found out someone was Turkish, would you immediately ask them if they supported Erdogan? If someone was Hungarian, would you try to find out if they supported Orban?
I don't know if you're an American, but how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don't support Trump because they're trying to "find out who's who?"
As an American, Trump is the first thing many of my European friends talk about
Yes, but do you have to justify yourself with half the Europeans you meet that you're not one of the Trump supporters?
Yes. Europeans tend to think Americans get the government we vote for and that we must like Trump since he was the president and isn't going away. It's ignorant, but I understand that they have this notion and I will, out of compassion and tolerance, explain that I am not a deranged bootlicking reactionary and do not support forever war, Christian nationalism or corporate hegemony.
Half? No.
Closer to 98%.
Europeans are just as jingoistic as anyone else. And just as ignorant.
This is already the case.
The Israeli government doesn't even represent all Israelis, let alone all Jews. Does represent the vast majority unfortunately
I dont mean you personally, but organizations that claim to represent the jewish people in various countries. For instance the American Jewish Committee that claims Jews critisizing Israel would be antisemites and tries to have the UN comittees dissolved that adress the human rights situation in Palestine. Or a bit larger but slightly more moderate the World Jewish Congress, that wants "to enhance solidarity among Jewish communities throughout the world and, recognizing the centrality of the State of Israel to contemporary Jewish identity, to strengthen the bonds of Jewish communities and Jews in the Diaspora with Israel"
These organizations claim to represent Jewish people around the world and that they would be in favor of Israel and support Israel, especially in face of criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jewish_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress
Sure, and white supremacists claim to represent all white people. They don't and no one should assume that just because you're white, you're a white supremacist.
Which i never did. You cannot deny the reality, that many Jewish people and organizations want to tie all Jewish people to Israel. It is the predominant view in the larger organizations, that are often recognized as spokespeople for the Jewish community in the respective country, continent or world.
I also find it wrong, that Israel is claiming to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole and having a lot of organized support for it. The voices to the contrary need to organize and make themselves heard.
And because of that, it's justified for people to constantly expect me to prove I have no allegiance to Israel? Bullshit. I should not have to prove I don't support apartheid just because I'm Jewish.
You shouldn't HAVE to, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, the ones who are making it not a reality are the Jewish organizations
So it's the Jews fault that all Jews have to justify to non-Jews that we're not bad people? That's what you're really going with?
Bro everyone has been repeating this over and over:
No! It’s Israel’s fault.
Why are YOU blaming others for what Israel is doing to Jewish identity?
So non-Jews are not at fault at all for being bigoted? It's all the fault of Israeli Jews? There's no bigotry involved at all? That's what you're saying?
What? Why would think that’s what I said?
And if people ask a Jewish person “hey do you support Bibi and the apartheid state of Israel?” how is that bigotry? It’s not assuming anything.
It’s hopeful the person is not a fascist. Not accusatory or anything.
There are A LOT of Jews and Israelis that don’t support the apartheid state of Israel. We all know that.
I’d ask a white South African if they supported the apartheid state there, for fucking sure.
Is it or is it not bigotry to ask a Chinese-American if they support the CCP?
I don’t think it is.
It’s not bigotry to ask a French person if they support Macron. Or a Russian if they support Putin.
You're doing exactly what I am saying. I didn't say Chinese person, I said Chinese-AMERICAN.
You ask an Israeli about their support for Netenyahu. You don't ask a Jew unless you know them.
Man you can ask ANYONE if they support the CCP. You can ask ANYONE if they support the Israeli apartheid state.
But it’s more relevant to ask people that are more likely to do so.
If many (most even) American Jews or Israeli-Americans support Bibi and the apartheid state, what the fuck are we supposed to do? Why is it bigotry to ask a question?
I’m an immigrant, to Europe, and I’ve been asked many times if I supported the fascist fucker who was our president for a while. Because A LOT of the immigrants from my country around that time did. It’s a fucking relevant question.
If you’re not a fascist, you don’t want to keep talking with one.
Did you just finish Sophistry 101? Cause that's all we're hearing out of you.
I mean you've climbed up on the cross, and it looks like you're even putting the nails in yourself.
Save some wood for Jesus.
Don't see why this was removed. Though it does go right back to OP's victim mentality.
Did you miss the other commentors explaining why that's the case? I personally don't do that, but I can understand why others do. As usual, blame the politicians
No, I did not miss all the other commenters blaming Jews for antisemitism.
How is that even anti semitic? They're pointing out an action that major Jewish organisations are undeniably doing. You don't get to play the antisemitic card for honest criticism. That's exactly the sort of BS Israel is pulling that makes everybody annoyed at them.
It's antisemitic because I have to justify myself as a Jew because people like them know this organization exists. As I have said multiple times- I have to justify that I am not a bad person because of my ancestry. Regularly. And you're saying that non-Jews bear no fault there. Fucking bullshit.
Antisemitism is hatred of Jews. People assuming that you're connected with Israel is not antisemitism, you're just diluting the word.
Do you realise that your response is exactly what the groups are hoping for when they're sowing their 'Jews = Israel' propaganda? They're defining your identity to the world, and by getting upset at the world for accepting that propaganda, you've allowed the organisations to drive a wedge between you and non-Jews. As a Chinese, I experience something similar with China. I can understand your feelings of annoyance. But you've got to understand that you're falling for the plans of the politicians when you respond in the way you are now.
I disagree that antisemitism is hatred. Antisemitism is the othering of Jews. People who say things like Jews are all rich are being antisemitic. Because it's a lie and a bigoted one. People who say anything about Jews as a universal truth are being antisemitic because there are no universal commonalities amongst Jews. But people don't care about that. They don't even care if you're an observant Jew. I've had people, completely innocently, ask me why Jews are in charge of Hollywood. They don't mean it in a hateful way. It's still antisemitic.
If someone asks a black person why black people are such good dancers, they aren't being hateful, but they are being racist.
So I may be falling for politicians, but I do not agree with your definition of antisemitism.
Fair enough, I agree with you on the antisemitism point. You probably still want to take a long moment to think about the root cause of why this is happening and what they hope to gain from it.
Do you think it would be offensive for someone to ask a German if they support Hitler in 1943?
Do people ask Germans born in the 70s like I was that?
No, because there wasn't a genocide happening in Germany then like there is in Palestine today. That's why I asked in 1943.
But you said Germans. That is part of my point. Jews are not Israelis. And you are equating Jews with being the same as a nation. This is exactly why I am forced to justify that I am not a bad person just because I'm a Jew.
There doesn't need to be an equivalency between nationality and religion, it's simple demographics. When you make your country an ethno-religous state the lines between both get blurred and that's what Israel wants.
Would you agree more Germans than non-Germans supported the Holocaust outside of Germany? Would you agree more Jewish people than non-Jewish people support Zionism outside of Israel?
Irrelevant. I should not have to defend myself just because I'm Jewish. I'm not an Israeli. I was not born an Israeli and I have never lived in Israel.
And if someone asked an American whose ancestors came from Germany 2000 years ago whether or not they supported the Holocaust, that would also be wrong.
I mean, my ancestors were in Germany in the 1940s. They didn't make it past the 1940s, but they were there.
Yawn.