Why is it that compared to other mental illness's like depression, ADHD, autism and anxiety people seem to be so hostile to NPD? I always see things about 'mental health awareness' yet this is never applied to personality disorders.
Just look up "narcissism", "NPD" or "narcissistic personality disorder" and the results are about how dangerous people with NPD are and how to spot somebody with NPD or if your ex boyfriend is a narcissist etc... etc...
I was watching this video earlier by a YouTube user 'ShortFatOtaku' called "Low IQ Twitter Discourse Awards!" and there was this one guy on twitter who said that if you claim advocate for the mentally ill you such do so with personality disorders as well. A statement I completely agree with:
https://youtu.be/3EJedJ8MhNA YouTube
ShortFatOtaku response with "wow your going to let that narcissist kill you and take everything from you?" I shouldn't have to explain how bad faith and unhinged that is.
Why do people think this way about narcissists? Having NPD doesn't make someone an inherently bad person. As someone who has NPD I haven't abused or manipulated anyone ever. Sure, I struggle with empathy, I have to make an effort to think about other people and ok I have a never ending need for validation but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person I understand I have a problem I didn't choose to be like this. Manipulation and grandiosity are awful traits that I have but they don't define me. I'm a good friend, I'm a good sister, I'm a good coworker and there are people out there who benefit from my existence. NPD doesn't have to define me I'm more then my diagnosis.
Oof... This is a tough one. First, I'll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I'd expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability. Assuming you've actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn't diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what's wrong with you. Maybe friends or family had to really push you towards getting help. Maybe your just young enough that seeking mental health help is normalized, so you were able to go for it.
"As someone who has NPD I haven't abused or manipulated anyone ever." -As someone with NPD you wouldn't be able to recognize if you had ever done these things. This entire post is pretty manipulative actually.
NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person's entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem. People will spend years trying to "save" a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it's THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it. Recognizing there is a problem is the first step towards fixing yourself. Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves. It's truly insidious.
All those things you listed would make you a bad person if you didn't try to correct them. And maybe you actually are. I certainly hope so.
Edit to add: asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon. It might seem to others that the person is REFUSING, when in reality they literally cannot physically do so. However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It's not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I'm sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
This post kinda scares me. Like the way you frame NPD is that if someone is diagnosed the only moral course of action is to never form relationships with anyone ever because you simply can't do so without hurting them. This turns any attempt at self reflection from someone with NPD into another form of manipulation and frames rehabilitation impossible. You would condemn someone to a lifetime of isolation from a singular diagnosis. It just doesn't sit right with me.
Noooo u don't get it! OP is manipulating everyone by asking this question /s
This has simply been my experience. It doesn't sit quite right with me. I want there to be a fix. I've just never seen it work.
This isn't true. What are you even basing this on?
Experience... And perhaps a little over zealous. I was trying to convey that it's not the person with NPDs fault, but I think it came across as hopeless.
Here's a quick grab from a Google search:
Targeting the Defenses That Sustain Narcissism
"Treating narcissism can be complex and multi-faceted. That’s because many of the hallmark behaviors of narcissism are the very ones that create enormous barriers to change.
Creating a therapeutic alliance in the face of defensiveness, denial, and a lack of self-awareness can sometimes feel like a hopeless cause. It can also seem uniquely challenging to execute even the gentlest intervention without activating the client’s defenses."
They asked why people are so hateful towards people with NPD, and I tried to explain it as simply as I could. With experienced, professional help, there's hope for people with NPD... But the disease itself is resistant to treatment, and almost any lay person trying to help is likely going to burn out fast.
The hope comes from the fact that we all have some degree of narcissism. It’s an aspect of humanity. NPD is when a person’s narcissism gets so big and unruly that it controls them and ruins their life.
The reason this is hopeful is that our culture is full of exercises and practices designed to counteract and transcend narcissism.
Someone with NPD may have a lot more work to do, but the kind of work they need to do is just an extreme version of the kind of work we all need to do in order to keep that particular demon at bay.
All very true... But we do have to DO the work, and unfortunately NPD builds in defenses against even recognizing the issue, let alone doing the work.
And narcissism combats our ability to recognize it when it’s sub-disorder level too.
We have practices like saying difficult truths to one another, or debating, or meditating, or using nonviolent communication technique, or spending time in nature, or writing in a journal. Etc etc.
A person’s non-disorder narcissism can be an impediment to their growth, and if they don’t manage it, it can grow to overcome a tipping point where it becomes dominant in their moment to moment behavior and they get trapped in it.
Just like anxiety, if not properly “trimmed”, can grow more and more powerful until it starts to prevent normal activities and then you’ve got an anxiety disorder.
Hatred and stereotypes from TV.
OP: "god, it's hard being a paraplegic and trying to run..."
You: "guys, don't listen to this asshole, being a paraplegic means you can't run. If this person were actually NPD, it would be an extremely positive sign for them to seek to improve themselves and since we can see this person trying to improve themselves, they are clearly lying and manipulative. Classic NPD."
Log off and touch grass. You can come back when the stench of your self righteous diarrhea of the mouth fades.
Wes never said anything like
They asked why people are so hateful towards people with NPD... I tried to explain it. People with NPD usually hurt everyone around them, and then SEEMINGLY refuse to recognize the hurt they've caused or that they themselves have the problem/are the problem. Which is why people feel so strongly against them.
Thank you, you've summed up the whole thread
I completely agree. Lived around narcissists my entire life, even covert narcissists that try to act humble, and this post is exactly what a narcissist would write. I don't mean to bash OP, but their traits are obvious to those who are experienced with them. I hope they seek treatment before they hurt anyone.
"Oof… This is a tough one. First, I’ll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I’d expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability."
accountability for what? Being born? Should I have known as a fetus that I would have a personality disorder one day? What did you expect me to do? Refuse to be born.
"Assuming you’ve actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn’t diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what’s wrong with you."
How do you know? You think your some expert because you watch some psych2Go and pop psychology slop? I know how I treat people and I have never received any complaints from anyone I know about how I treat them and no one else convinced me to seek therapy.
"NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person’s entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem."
While I agree with most of what you said I do disagree with the "not being able to truly recognize their own disorder." part. For me it's not that I can't recognize theres something wrong with me it's that it hurts to think there's something wrong with me. Maybe it's true for most other narcissist but not for me. A another big problem is that personality disorders are not like diseases. They can't be cured and you live with them for the rest of your life. I really wish I could get rib of my NPD and be like everyone else but I'm suck with this burden.
"People will spend years trying to “save” a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it’s THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it."
Again, how do you know? There are plenty of people who live normal lives with NPD. Believe it or not the real world isn't some Amazon bookstore romance novel where the big bad narc will kill and eat you. NPD is a disorder like any other so it may put you in a disadvantage but it doesn't define you. I understand there's something fundamentally wrong with me and I need help. My narcissism is a awful thing I live with but I won't let it define me.
"However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It’s not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I’m sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated."
For someone who's accusing me of being manipulative you sure are doing a lot of gaslighting. You're probably never read a psychology book in your life and the only experience you have is pop psychology videos on YouTube and horror movies but I suppose it's not the choice of a stupid person. They just can't help themselves but however a stupid person is a stupid person and all you can do is disregard everything they say. I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
I'm a mental health clinician.
You asked why people reject people with NPD... I tried to explain it. Your response was even more like what you'd expect from someone with NPD than your post was btw. You could have been curious, I am after all, just an internet stranger; who gives a shit what I think? But you went hard on the defensiveness.
You aren't born with NPD. It's a defense mechanism against trauma you went through when you were younger. So I am really truly very sorry you went through whatever you went through.
I'm glad you have a therapist, and I hope they are a good fit for you to really feel comfortable opening up about your childhood, and how that might have affected you.
Being able to recognize that SOMETHING is wrong is not the same as truly comprehending WHAT is wrong. I worded my original statement poorly, sorry about that. But that hurt, when you think that something is wrong with you, is the reason most people with NPD can't face it, not even to fix it. To fix it a person needs to be able to not just think about it, but really dig into it. A full embrace of and deep dive into that thing you say hurts just to think about. Most people can't bring themselves to even think about it, which is why they get so defensive if you get anywhere near it, on purpose or not. Good on you for facing it.
And I know there's no cure, but with a lot of work there are work arounds you can train into your brain. I really do hope we find a cure someday. For all personality disorders. They are truly horrible afflictions.
One of the hardest parts is that it's a non-stop 24/7 battle you didn't sign up for and never ends and ALWAYS feels completely unfair (this is why people with NPD NEED professional help with it). NPD might not define you, but in order to beat it you will have to be defined by your fight against it... You'll need to be "spacefox3 the narcissist who's not going to let it win today" everyday. And we both know you can do it.
Neat job. In the context of your profession, do you think Theramintrees YouTube channel is a good resource? "Good" is probably dependent on the audience.
Never heard of it I'm afraid. After a quick skim it seems like he calls out religion for it's bullshit in a few videos, so I like that. But, I'll have to actually watch some videos to see what he's about. Thanks for pointing me towards it.
Yeah he has a few videos that deconstruct different abuse dynamics.
After watching several of his videos, and most of the narcissism ones, I'd say he's great. I'd certainly recommend his channel to anyone looking for an easy to understand intro to these things. Thanks again for the suggestion
When I was in college in the early 2000s, I took psychology classes.
In one class the professor told us that one of the best predictors of NPD was describing the disorder to someone and then asking them “Do you have this?”
According to that professor, NPD sufferers were more likely than most other disorders to recognize it in their self.
This directly contradicts what you just said about it.
You’re thinking of the “single item narcissism scale” which is the question
The disconnect is that while a narcissist can recognize they are narcissistic, they cannot accept that it rises to the level of a disorder or acknowledge the harm they cause others.
See, your making a mistake everyone else of in just assuming that I'm harmful for others. I have a very strong friend group and family members who love me and would completely disagree with your analysis on me.
That sounds incorrect. Maybe they could recognize their behaviors if you spelled it out for them and put it in a context that in no way indicated you were trying to get them to admit something about themselves... but they're unlikely to believe there's actually something wrong with them that they need to work to fix.
That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
The Narcissist's Prayer (by Dayna Craig)