this post was submitted on 22 Sep 2023
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I'm not going to engage with your personal attacks and you should feel shameful for saying such nasty things to a stranger you hardly know.
The Ukraine-Russia conflict can be viewed in many different ways. One of them is Russia being an aggressor and waging an illegal war of conquest like Nazi Germany, and that's a valid way to look at the conflict. I'm sure even he would agree of that. However the conflict is also very dangerous, especially with NATO involvement. The biggest threat is actually if the war would escalate into nuclear annihilation because Putin has threatened that if Russia loses, they're going to start nuking. Have you forgotten about that?
That is your opinion. A missile can be used to shoot a helicopter just as easily on the Ukraine side of the border as on the Russian side of the border.
If we assume that Ukraine would manage to sue for some sort of white peace or extended ceasefire, what would that mean with the supplies that has been lent to Ukraine and the Ukrainian people and all the debt that Ukraine is racking up? Who do you think will have to pay for all that and what would the consequences be for Ukrainians? Probably not very good things. Possibly privatizations, international loans from WTO or other forms of neocolonialism. The intent of involvement from the west is highly suspicious and deserve its own scrutiny.
Maybe so, or maybe there might be a regime change in 5 years? Maybe with some time passing Putin somehow dies? Of sickness, old age or some other reason? In 5 years Putin would be over the average life expectancy of Russians. Maybe the Russians don't try again in 5 years because they got humiliated this time? The world isn't static and time changes things.
Second thought released its own video surrounding the Ukraine conflict and in a comment he posted he outlined his positions surrounding the conflict. I quote:
This is similar to the things he said in your video you linked. What has he lied about? Can you name even one contradiction? That doesn't mean that he wants Ukraine to surrender or give up, rather that's just your interpretation of his stance which is blatantly wrong and has no evidence. The fact that you try to claim otherwise because he calls for peace is just slander.
That is the ONLY valid way to look at the conflict. Ruzzia illegaly invaded ukraine both in 2014 and 2021.
He would not.
Those are empty threats, if you have seen the state of Ruzzian equipment you would understand that. The only country that would get annihilated in this conflict would be Ruzzia.
How is that an argument? Both are valid and good ways to protect Ukraine. One less helicopter means one less chance for an innocent ukrainan to be harmed.
Those supplies would be used to defend ukraine and bolster the border with the two fascist nations that border it. Banks have frozen accounts of ork oligarchs, have seized materiel and such. Those can be the start. The international community can band together to help. It would not be the first time.
Europes involvement is not at all suspicious. It's a brutal attack on a sovereign nation near their borders. You would be insane to not support them.
If Ruzzians are not humiliated on the world stage in a way that wakes up even the most politically dead in the country, nothing will change. If we give them ANY concession, nothing will change. Total and absolute withdrawal, that is what needs to happen.
How hard is it to fucking understand, RUZZIA. INVADED. UKRAINE. People suffer BECAUSE OF RUZZIA, not because of "geopolitical jockeying" Jesus fucking chirst man. The only one who is in fault is ruzzia, if they wanted they could retreat now
Again, wrong. Sanctions have drastically reduced the capability of ruzzia to make new tanks, weapons, and rockets. Thanks to sanctions, ruzzia is unable to make long range rockets that have been indiscriminately killing civilians.
It absolutely fucking isn't. Once again, tell that to WW2 veterans who have fought and died for the free world. A just society who accepts unjustifiable people and positions is not just.
Holy fucking shit here we go. The myth of NATO expansion. Such a funny lie and I am so happy you brought it up. Thankfully it has been completely annihilated. https://youtu.be/FVmmASrAL-Q?si=gN80y0EnM2W1qJuT
It isn't, if I tried to explain every single contradiction and lie he has spouted in that video i would hit the character limit. Instead, I am liking a debunk of dylan burns and keffals.
https://youtu.be/hg-9Fa4MbMY?si=kPqzJwEdWBXtJwl8
No you literally couldn't because you have nothing to say. If you have something of substance to say, say it. Don't hide between a long and obnoxious reaction video.
The rest of your post is just... ridiculous. You can argue the 4 points he raised to him if you want, but I'd rather choose not to engage with that nonsense since it's not my arguments.
You're not wrong about these arguments such as Russia being the aggressor and them being able to retreat. Nobody is disputing those facts. Preferably I would also like Russia to realize that they did wrong, surrender to Ukraine and pay them war reparations, but I live in the real world where that seems pretty unlikely. That's why I don't expect for such an outcome, not because I don't think it's the right thing to do. You can scream yourself hoarse about what Russia ought to do, but that's a factor we cannot control and we should approach the conflict with that in mind.
I do agree with him that we should have anti-war and your argument against that isn't an argument even. War is just a political event where workers are sent to kill other workers. Anti-war is the position of the worker movement and everybody who are social democrat or more left leaning agrees on that fact. Since you think otherwise, you must be a reactionary and are blowing some sort of dog whistle right now.
This is not WW2, this is a war where one country is a nuclear power, the largest nuclear power in the world in fact! The performance of the Russian army during the conflict doesn't really mean that they cannot launch nukes. Even if their nukes aren't fully effective, they can most likely still cause tremendous harm and the threat of the nuclear war isn't just the initial salvo but the retaliation and the threat of nuclear winter. For us who live in Europe, Russia's arsenal is a nasty and scary threat, but maybe you don't care because I assume you live in USA and feel more confident? I think that confidence is also misplaced, there's no defense against nuclear armageddon. If that happens, billions will die and suffer.
I live next to Ukraine, I have seen the destruction personally, I have lost people I love and see bullshit when it's there.
In this "political event," which I would rather describe as a brutal uncalled for attack, Ruzzia sent its own workers (and prisoners) to go indiscriminately murder any and every ukranian they come across. I agree with your definition of war, never said otherwise.
But okay, I will go through the first minute alone and point out every single lie.
Calling euromaidan a "far right coup" is complete lie, it is ruzzian propaganda. Euromaidan was unilateral and supported by left and right. Neonazis joined it, of course as they saw an opportunity. Since then the far right party has been getting less and less support, today being the lowest.
Calling the new government a puppet regime is disingenuous, just like any of his and your claims. First government almost immediately held a public vote, thats how zelenski got into government.
It was never a provocation, it was a civilian uprising
They did not plan a proxy war. Ruzzia started this war for its own imperial means. That reality was not swept under the rug, its a blatant fucking lie.
That is just the first minute. Once again, I am not willing to write paragraph after paragraph when all of this has been debunked much more eloquently by Dylan, someone who knows much more than me, your or zero thought.
https://youtu.be/hg-9Fa4MbMY?si=PMoRahRzIsofExEF
Ah you're Polish then I assume? My condolences and I think that maybe that fact makes you quite impartial toward a narrative where Ukraine is seen as the victim, which I agree to, Ukraine IS the victim here.
Yet you're pro-war. So you apparently agree with my definition but are also pro-war. Therefore workers should fight each other if the ends justify the means? Is that right?
When a ML says "far right", he might mean a neonazi, a conservative or a liberal. On the political scale from that perspective a "centrist" would be a social democrat. However the far right party might stand in polls isn't exactly interesting. If the goal is to make Ukraine compatible with the west like Second Thought claims, then nazi ideology would be counterproductive toward that goal anyway so I'm not sure what you think that proves.
Maybe? I mean if we're supposed to entertain that argument then we could guess that Russia's elections in the regions they conquered also prove that there's a genuine sentiment in breaking off? I don't think so. Election results isn't a sign of consent. I would also like to know why he decides to call it a "puppet regime". At the same time, it's pretty common for MLs to be suspicious of any cooperation with the west. It sounds like something he would have said on his own channel but maybe it greater detail argue why that is the case.
Okay and you're sure about this why? In the video Dylan doesn't give any explanation either why he thinks otherwise. If Ukraine really is a puppet state and the protests were backed by USA, maybe that was the plan?
I have to admit that the things you bring up weren't the things I expected you to want to highlight since you seemed to argue that he has a different stance toward the conflict between his own channel and the video you posted, which doesn't seem to be the case. The video you posted of Dylan is just nitpicking on the points presented in the video. Dylan doesn't give his own evidence to his claims and while the burden of proof is on Second Thought it's important to realize that he's talking about this topic to a completely different audience who already are (or at least should be) informed of what he's talking about. He's hardly trying to present a case to convince outsiders, so making a nitpicking video against it is very easy, because the format isn't meant to convince anyone. Why should I be impressed or convinced by Dylan? Come on...
Nope, however, my country has suffered under soviets and nazis alike, I don't want that to happen again.
If defending yourself against a fascist invasion is pro war, so be it. Let me ask you: what the fuck was ukraine supposed to do? Lay down their weapons? Let the orks kill their men, rape their women and children? Should we let countries invade eachother for no fucking reason? Or should we fight back and try our hardest to defeat tyranny?
And once again and I will never stop saying this: ruzzia started this war. Not Ukraine. They are defending themselves. Kremlin always has a choice, for Ukraine, not fighting means certain death. War does not justify any means because there js no justification. Its a brutal invasion.
Its his words, not mine. He called it a far right coup backed by US. Both of these are lies.
He calls it that because he is spouting ruzzian propaganda. Hopefully we could at least agree on that.
That is a rather big if there buddy. Dylan does give explanation why it wasn't and if not in this video, he absolutely debunked it in his video about euromaidan. Also he does give counter evidence against the claim that it was backed by US. Did US send its troops? No. Their Diplomats? Their people to protest? No. They were supporting it because they rose up against their former president and in the same way against ruzzia. Obviously US would be happy about it, i am not blind. But there is no evidence for the fact it was "backed" by the us
You must have misunderstood me then, his videos are on his main channel are not so overt because he hides his true colours.
I do disagree with that. I can't change your mind on the fact you think it's nitpicking and I don't intend to. You have a right to have that opinion.
Also I just want to point out that just because I despise ruzzia with every fibre of my being, I do not like the US. They have done some really fucked up things and their domestic politics are awful. But right now, they support a country that deserves support. I don't want this war to go on, I really don't. I love ukranian cities and their people, their beautiful nature and their tasty food. I want to see my ukrainan friends again.
But it was taken, some are dead, some fight as I speak. Hopefully, some day, I'll be able to hug them somewhere in a Ukranian beach in crimea. That's all I want.
I wholeheartedly support people seeking to protect their loved ones, but war isn't that. War is when you fight for a capitalist state in order to reach their political goals. That's true both in offense as well as in defense. For Russia that interest is to steal Ukrainian land to reach Putin's flimsy goals, whereas for Ukraine, it's to preserve the independence and integrity of their country. But unless you're looking at something like literal nazis who are looking to exterminate you, then you're not looking at death when you get defeated, you instead have new management. The Ukrainian people doesn't disappear because Ukraine disappears.
The path toward war isn't instant. Ukraine has a history with Russia that can easily put them at odds with Russian interests. Their previous governments understood this and tried to keep a good relationship with Russia. War was the price they had to pay for rejecting Russia and moving closer to Europe and USA. Belarus doesn't have this problem because they managed to collaborate with Russia. In a world where might makes right (like in capitalist worlds), then this is the logical outcome of geopolitical competition. The obvious way to protect the interests of the Ukrainian state would have been to keep the nuclear weapons because then they could at least threaten Russia with nuclear war. That's how geopolitics works in capitalism.
The best way to protect the interest of the people would be to have socialist governments in both countries. Then there would be no need for war.
For Ukraine not fighting means death of the state. You seem to think that Ukrainian state and the people are the same, but they're not. Workers are workers independent of state. We are just slaves to be used by the capitalist states as they wish and we shouldn't be loyal to them just like we should be loyal to our employers. Russia has chosen to use their slaves to invade Ukraine and that most certainly means death and destruction (especially considering how Russia's military has conducted the war) so to end the war is to conclude the war as quickly as possible.
Ukraine can surrender, although I don't think that's a good option. Especially for the sake of setting a precedent in geopolitics since that means that (like you said); it validates the invasion and wars of conquest which is a bad thing and shouldn't be validated.
But once again I will reiterate I don't expect Russia to give up either. The conflict will therefore continue until either Russia decides that they can't fight anymore or Ukraine collapse. The worst case scenario would be if Russia decides to make good on their threats and decide to launch nukes and that might happen if Ukraine becomes seen as a serious threat.
Yes it is his words, spoken to a specific audience.
If that's the case than that would surprise me. I wonder what stake MLs would have in supporting modern Russia since it's a capitalist dystopia run by oligarchs. Now if it was Soviet propaganda on the other hand, I would understand. That's why I highly doubt your claims of them lying and spouting Russian propaganda, because lying for the sake of Russia doesn't make any sense.
That's not counter evidence, that's conjecture. You don't have to send troops. Every country will have people to challenge the status quo. It's not like USA sent troops to Al-Quaida or the Lybian rebels or created them from nothing, they were already there! They could support groups with weapons, supplies, communication or training or some other way. Now with that being said, I don't think US armed the rebels or supplied them and I would be surprised if Second Thought are hinting at that. I'm curious myself what they actually are referring to, but I doubt they have actually released a video on the subject. I never came across a video on their main channel about it and I don't want to listen through all of the deprogram either.
In this case you must be misunderstanding me. He's open about his biases. They're not exactly hiding that they're all MLs. That's why I said that his stance doesn't seem any different. It's similar talking points, similar rhetoric. Just a different format.
Yes it's terrible that the world has become the plaything of all these large countries USA, Russia and China. I am strictly against USA in its current form as well and I'm also against Putin's Russia. They are two very dangerous countries and it's truly a travesty that they hold the largest nuclear arsenals to subjugate the rest of the world with.
My personal stance since the conflict began has mostly been speaking in favor of Ukraine and against Russia, even if I am seemingly taken a pro-Russian stance here (I'm not). I don't have a stake either in Russia or Ukraine. They're both capitalist countries who are doing what capitalist countries do. The thing I want to avoid is nuclear armageddon and I certainly dislike USA lording over everything and increasing the risk.
Have you forgotten what Ruzzia does to its people?
Just to remind you:
You are not allowed free expression. You can be arrested for holding a blank sign.
Homosexuality is restricted if not forbidden completely in some regions. There is no protection for anyone in the LGBTQ+ spectrum.
It is a dictatorship in every single sense of the word. Elections are fake, and speaking put against it is forbidden.
Most people live in horrible conditions as all money has been taken by the elites.
Anything but "ruSSian culture" is ignored. the USSR is taken as a deity.
I can continue on, but you get the point.
Giving up, surrendering, does not mean only the death of the state. It is the death of democracy. Of free speech. Of anything that is ukranian. Houndreds of thousands of ukranians would be arrested for speaking out. How many more would die? Giving up would be the death of ukranian culture, its language, hundreds of years of history. This what ruzzia does, and this is what they intended to do.
And do you seriously think that Ukraine giving up would be the end, though? Seriously? It's like saying that everything ended after the US invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. Of course not. Fucking hell the invasion itself was supposed to be the easy part. There would be descent all over, hidden cells that would cause as much chaos to this new "management." It would never end.
And they didn't use any of these ways to back euromaidan. It was not backed. It was a grassroots movement.
I would not blame the United States for "increasing risk of nuclear war." It's ruzzia that constantly swings its nukes around. Are you seriously gonna be like, "Oh sure, let them bully everyone because of their nukes" nah fuck that. I am more than confident that not only the orcs do not have the stupidity to use their arsenal, if they did, its them who would be exterminated, not the free world.
Finally, he is using ruzzian or Chinese propaganda, hard to tell because they are so bloody similar to this issue. It is odd to me that ML supporting ruzzia would surprise you? Why? Most MLs and tankies work on "America bad" logic. So they support any and all of America enemies. Be it China, ruzzia, North Korea, or Cuba. It does not matter, just so they can be against the us.
His whole video and and most of channel works on that logic, and this specific video is pro ruzzia. He never specifically criticises ruzzia, he sure loves telling bullshit about Ukrainians and making them just pawns in a game us is playing. Which is extremely insulting and degrading if you ask me.
You're being melodramatic! As if there's any democracy in parliamentarism anyway! You're basically telling me that people who challenge their society gets arrested and some might die. I don't sympathize with people willing to sacrifice themselves for a state or a nation. That's foolish, especially when this state has been defeated! The geographical location of Ukraine has been Russian for a very long time and I'm curious what you think Ukrainian (as opposed to Russian) culture even is. The state of Ukraine is barely 33 years old! Additionally Russia organizes itself into regions with varying levels of autonomy, sometimes regions with very high autonomy. It's not like a country such as Poland or Czechia where there's little difference between the regions.
You're wrong about the outcome of nuclear war. The only way only Russia is exterminated by nuclear war would be 1) If the US would attack first and 2) If they resign to their fate without retaliating or 3) it happens in your fantasy. 1 and 2 are highly unlikely. 3 is guaranteed but not helpful.
It's true that MLs hate America as it exists right now. Even if you ignore all of the other faults of USA, they're the primary enforcer of capitalism after all. America effectively runs the world, holds the exchange currency of the world, decides international law (especially surrounding the internet and intellectual property) and isn't held accountable by anything or anyone, not even its own citizens. The reason why MLs might support many of Americas enemies is because America decides to be enemies with Marxist-Leninist states. You have to ask yourself how reasonable it is to have a country consistently deciding to make enemies of other countries because they run a different society. Russia however isn't Marxist-Leninist so MLs don't have a stake in defending Russia.
Most people are pawns, not just Ukrainians. Like I said; we're slaves and additionally many are undereducated and uninformed. If people want to truly be their own people they should aspire to break free from capitalist propaganda but many just eat it right up. Even you seem to treat Ukrainians like pawns since you believe that so many will be unable to live in Russia, maybe you should give them more credit than that?
You know nothing about ours and their culture, yet you speak on it.
You act like states do not matter, yet you believe that the culture of the state begins at its inception. Ukrainan culture is not 33 years old. If you believe that, you are delusional.
And what about fucking sacrifice for a state are you fucking talking about? How about all the LGBTQ+ community in Ukraine? Do you wish for their rights to just fucking dissappear? Do you wish for all the political parties to go with them? The socialists too? You understand they would be banned and replaced by ruzzian "counterparts," right?
You are genuinely fucking insane if you would rather see entire cultures die and leave people to get annihilated by imperial regimes, rather than fight back. That is not a pro war position. It is the only sane one.
And the irony that you are socialist, yet the fact ukraine has been conquered by ruzzia in the past holds any water to you says a lot. The state is outside culture. It is not the same thing. And ruzzian and ukranian culture are different. The problem is that the way fascists like ruzzia conquer states is to erase culture with it, and replace it with their own. They move or kill people, move their own in so its more and more ruzzian. Same as china. Both of these are by definition, a genocide.
I do not treat Ukrainians like pawns, you do. You want them to give up, for the western support to stop, they don't. Vast, VAST, majority do not want to be ruzzian. Do you know why? Can you possibly know why?!
Because they remember. We remember what is was to be under a dictatorship, we know too well how evil USSR was. We all felt the cost.
But Ukrainians even more. Their houses were bombed. Their men killed. Their wives raped. Their children kidnapped and are being reeducated in ruzzia as we speak. Their villages ravaged.
Say Bucha, say its name.
If after that what this imperial regime has done to Ukraine you still feel like ukrainans should lay down their arms and resign to their fate...
...then I have nothing to tell you, because then you are too deep down up the ML ass to even talk to.