this post was submitted on 06 Feb 2025
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Dairy cattle in Nevada have been infected with a new type of bird flu that’s different from the version that has spread in U.S. herds since last year, Agriculture Department officials said Wednesday.

The detection indicates that distinct forms of the virus known as Type A H5N1 have spilled over from wild birds into cattle at least twice. Experts said it raises new questions about wider spread and the difficulty of controlling infections in animals and the people who work closely with them.

“I always thought one bird-to-cow transmission was a very rare event. Seems that may not be the case,” said Richard Webby, an influenza expert at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital.

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[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

but where did you get those? because i've found some LCA meta "studies" that i don't trust which are usually the ones trotted out. i was hoping you had good data sources.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean I have never looked into the studies that are the basis for the data but while I think its possible in the details I really doubt the overall would be wrong. Water usage and calorie wise it pretty much falls in line with smaller animals using less for each calorie. I really doubt people are hyping crickets capability to convert plants into cricket vs cows making plants into cow. Its common sense enough that Im not looking to determining how well the studies were done as I don't do that for most things as most people don't who still work a job enough to eat and such. Conversely if you know about bad studies I would not mind you giving me what you have. I have just done a quick search using terms like misleading and scam and such and nothing seems to come up.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

poore-nemecek 2018 is oft-cited. it is the one that is often used to justify the claim you made. but that meta "study" misuses its source data: LCA findings are not transferable between studies. this is explicitly stated by some of of the source papers which also violated this rule, but poore and nemecek disregarded this guidance and didn't even mention it.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I feel there should be earlier things as I swear I saw similar things before 2010. Im looking into poore-nemecek but im not sure if its even the same thing as it seems to be about co2 and global warming as opposed to water usage or calorie usage.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

they address land use and water use

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The only things im finding so far is real bullshit. Claims of soy and corn grown for human used and the cows just getting the waste when we grow specifically feed corn. Im still looking for some legitimate critique article.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I gave you the critique. read their LCA references.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

are you asking me to judge their methodology because it is way out of my field. Again though what I am seeing of critiques themselves have issues I can see and if I see something I no is not correct like the animal feed thing then I discount the whole critique because I do not feel I can trust it. As for other sources I can say going back I can find thes about conversion https://awellfedworld.org/feed-ratios/ and its source material in most cases is industry information.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

are you asking me to judge their methodology because it is way out of my field.

I assure you it is written in plain English. no hard math is required to understand that they compiled data that was collected with disparate methodologies, and did so against the express direction of the original authors as well as accepted practice. further, the failed to disclose this, even when citing papers which committed the same faux pas which did disclose it.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

none of thatwould invalidate it though. Disparate methodologies can be normalized. Almost no studies could be compare or correlated otherwise. express direction of authors just sound dramy to me. and then a faux pa. the article still seems to be about co2 to me as well so maybe im not reading it right.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

none of thatwould invalidate it though.

you're not qualified to evaluate their methodologies, but you disagree with my analysis of their methodologies without reading them? I don't feel you are actually engaging with the material.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Im not disagreeing im saying its not anything that invalidates and its from some offhand internet comments so its not something I can look through. I am engaging and looking through the material. Besides what I put before currently am looking at these but its not like your giving me direct links your just giving me your generalities. https://climatefeedback.org/evaluation/guardian-story-on-climate-impacts-of-diet-gets-mixed-reviews-from-scientists-damian-carrington/ https://ourworldindata.org/faqs-environmental-impacts-food

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm telling you to read a specific paper and it's own references.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Ok. again Im trying my best here but maybe im just not finding what you find from google searching. Nothing like an an original article in its entirety is coming up for me.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not suggesting a Google search. I'm telling you to read the paper and the papers it references for it's LCAs

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (3 children)

do you have a link to that.? I don't get how you expect me to do this if you don't think I use a search engine to find it.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

both the quotes I just gave are directly from papers referenced by poore and nemecek.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

ok I think we have a few issues here. Firstly I am not even sure if any of the things I was talking about get their data from poore and nemecek wich as far as I can tell is about co2 from the little I have access to them. So its sorta a tangent for me to begin with. I think now I get that you are reference references that the poore and nemecek paper uses to show the data is limited in how it can be used. Ok so im a guy on the internet and while I do have some experience with evaluating scientific papers I don't do it in my current day to day and im quite frankly not going to. I do know that it is common for a paper to mention limitations of its study but that does not invalidate a paper that uses it as a reference. At the end of the day its great you have an issue but its not enough for me to throw out common data from relatively reputable sources when I can't find any more professional critiques and thats even assuming the paper you pulled out is source data for it which it may not be. You did successfully get me to go look at a lot of things again and I posted links so its not a total waste but look. Im pretty much done. You have not convinced me that articles are working with flawed data.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

my goal was actually to get you to give me compelling data. I'm not quite sure how it ended up the other way around.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I mean in the mix I have the food conversion link and that data as I said is industry data so im not sure if that suffices. I think we just sorta went on a tangent with the one paper. Its the most straight forward anyway for the vegan vs meat reduction. vegan being 1/1 usage of plant matter and chicken 1/3, pork 1/6., beef 1/14. I mean that as averages and there is variability especialin in beef but even in chicken worse case to beef best case it wins out and average conversion your looking at four fold efficiency so bascially if you can get X number of people to be vegans getting 4X people to limit themselves to chicken should have the same effect and anything more is gravy. My point way back with militant vegans is they will harras the idea of reducing meat because everyone should become vegan but from my experience limiting meat intake to chicken and/or reducing meat in general is much more likely with folks and much more likely to get in large numbers so they are sorta working against themselves. I mean americans eat a rediculous amounts of beef. All meat really but mainly due to fast food a lot of beef. To give a real world example my wife and I are not vegan but we do eat mainly chicken and pork and now we will split a chicken breast between us in a typical dinner. Compared to what we ate two decades ago or I think even worse when we were young and unmarried and like a dozen of our current selves would have to go vegan to get the same effect. None of that is obviously and exact thing as im averaging and using a bit of guestimating but I hope the gist comes out.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

vegan being 1/1 usage of plant matter and chicken 1/3, pork 1/6., beef 1/14

assuming this is true, which I haven't looked into the methodology, broadly speaking, we don't feed animals plants and parts of plants that we want to eat. beef cattle graze most of their lives. soybeans are pressed for oil, and the byproduct is what is fed to livestock. sure, we grow alfalfa and feed corn, but I'm just not convinced it's a bad use of resources: making food is good, and I don't see anything wrong with eating beef or chicken or pork.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago (3 children)

ok so the link I have uses industry data. So take that for what you want but for the second part you don't need a paper. The amazon rainforest was logged to create grazeland for cattle. Sure if the only cattle we ever raised were in areas that are natural grassland it would be a bit different but beef production really screwed the pooch there. Im very suspect of the mostly by product and not feed products given we grow a ton of feed. I have never seen any numbers to support most of their lives grazing. I have seen one year grazine and few years in the feed lot. More importantly you have to take into the weight difference from birth to feedlot and start of feedlot to end of feedlot. Im 100% that animals are inefficient as we do them now. as the same goes for chickens which become much better if they are basically just scavengers. There is absolutely no way the level of meat, cheese, and eggs could be supported on animals just eating and using land in a natural state though.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

There is absolutely no way the level of meat, cheese, and eggs could be supported on animals just eating and using land in a natural state though.

ok. whether I eat it though, or not, won't change whether the industry grows or shrinks.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

ok we are getting into economics but it certainly does. food production is not to throw in landfills its to sell to humans. humans who buy create the market to make.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

production happens before purchases and an event in the future cannot cause an event in the past. ipso facto, consumption cannot be the cause of production.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

oh man you do not understand how business/capitalism works. production is based on consumption. no iso facto. its just how it works. companies that make things that are not consumed lose money and go out of business.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

companies that make things that are not consumed lose money and go out of business.

this couldn't happen if production is caused by consumption. this means that companies that go out of business because the product isn't consumed are companies that were always operating on the risk of the product might not be consumed. in fact, all companies fit this description. All production is made without a guarantee of return. we can't say that the return causes it.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

alright. look. I have put way more into this than I intended to begin with and this argument you have here is just broken from reality and im not going to go further with this discussion.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 12 hours ago

everything I've said here is true. but have a nice day

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I have seen one year grazine and few years in the feed lot.

it's only a few months on a feedlot. beef cattle don't usually live more than 18 months

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I have seen estimates of one to several years but its possible the one is rounding up. As I said before the big stat is basically pounds of cow created on grass vs pounds created by feed. The reason the cow is moved to the feedlot is they reached the age where they can pack on the pounds.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

dairy cattle live about 5 years, and then become beef, but a beef operation doesn't keep the animals that long because there's no point if they can graze them for a year and put em in a lot for 6 months.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago

regardless the point is its pounds on one feed or another so maybe dairy beef ends up being a bit better but I think its pretty irrelevant in the long run for what we are talking about.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

The amazon rainforest was logged to create grazeland for cattle.

this is bad. it doesn't make eating beef bad.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

its the demand for beef that caused this. it most certainly does. it would not have happened if folks had embraced the hippie era and reduced consumption back in the 60's

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I don't see how it could have caused it. people chose to slash and burn the forest of their own volition. they have full agency in their decisions. if they'd have asked me, I would have said "don't do that". I can't possibly be responsible for their choices

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

it caused it by creating the demand. It was done to sell to people who consume it. Without the consumption the activity would not have happened.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 13 hours ago

Without the consumption the activity would not have happened.

you can't prove a counterfactual

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago

here's another

LCA results can have high uncertainties because of the large amounts of measured and simulated data and the simplified modeling of complex en- vironmental cause-effect chains. Recent studies have highlighted the contribution that system as- sumptions and value choices can also make to overall uncertainty (36, 37). A number of quantita- tive uncertainty assessments are available (38) butare rarely used in practice. One of the key questions is, how much uncertainty is acceptable, depending on the application? In some cases, rough estimates of input values can be enough to identify supply- chain hotspots (39), but for other applications, such as product comparisons (37), the demands for more accurate values are higher. For some im- pact categories such as toxicity, very large differ- ences in inventory results are needed to statistically differentiate product systems, whereas for other categories, differences of a factor of two or less may be enough (40). LCA practitioners should al- ways attempt to manage the decision-maker’s expectations and clarify that LCA is not always a tool to provide a single answer, but rather one that permits comprehensive understanding of a problem and its possible solutions.

[–] nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago

uh... I'm on my couch on mobile but I have a quote

First, it is often cited that LCA results should not be compared (Desjardins et al., 2012; Foster et al., 2006; McAuliffe et al., 2016; Röös et al., 2013) due to variation in methodology choices, functional units, as well as temporal and regional differences2. Second, no single comprehensive review was identified that adequately covers the breadth of fresh foods available to consumers and caterers. As Helle et al. (2013, p.12643) state ‘data availability and quality remain primary obstacles in diet-level environmental impact assessment’, while Pulkkinen et al. (2015) calls for the creation of a database that communicates data quality, uncertainty and variability to reliably differentiate between the GWP of food types. Previous studies have compiled LCA data to compare different foods (e.g. Audsley et al., 2009; Berners-Lee et al., 2012; Bradbear and Friel, 2011; de Vries and de Boer, 2010; Foster et al., 2006; Nijdam et al., 2012; Sonesson et al., 2010; Roy et al., 2009). While these are useful attempts, the identified studies are inadequate in the coverage of fresh foods available. Environmental Product Declarations (EPDs) attempt to inform consumers of the environmental impacts (carbon, water and ecological footprint) of specific foods, however they also fall short in breadth of items covered at present. The most comprehensive attempt at carbon footprint labelling was performed by Tesco (2012), however failed to label key categories such as fresh fish, pork, lamb or beef before finishing in 2012 due to the scale of the labelling scheme and a lack of participation from other retailers (Head et al., 2013). Third, studies that do compare results may often present singular figures. Peters et al. (2010) and Röös et al. (2011) argue that a range of impacts should be reported from LCA’s to better represent the variety of environmental impacts, as opposed to a singular figure. Finally, there is a lack of synthesised open access LCA data in the public domain available to consumers to inform decision-making.