my biggest issue with Leftists is their seeming need to defend totalitarians instead of just writing them off and admitting, "ok, yeah, they suck, but communism could still work!"

[–] darthelmet@lemmy.world 10 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (4 children)

It’s not really about defending the bad stuff. It’s about trying to get some more nuance on perhaps the most propagandized topic of the 20th century.

There are all sorts of interesting discussions to have about the various failings of these countries amongst other leftists who have the relevant context as a starting point for a reasonable discussion.

But when talking to libs/conservatives, they’re coming into the conversation with an already extremely warped, un-nuanced perspective. “These are all evil dictatorships that were also super incompetent and that shows why communism is bad.”

Some of the stuff they base this on is either exaggerated or just straight up wrong. Some of it is completely valid criticism, but without the context to understand the issue or provide a useful critique.

How do you have any meaningful conversation about these countries without acknowledging things like:

All of these countries were previously agrarian, un-democratic societies.
Most of them were formerly exploited colonies who had to fight fairly brutal wars for their independence.
Even after leaving, the imperialists kept messing with them through economic and diplomatic isolation and espionage including supporting right wing coups.

We don’t have the counterfactual where we see what these countries would have turned out like without these challenges, but it’s an incomplete analysis to not at least consider the ways which they impacted both their economic success and their political developments. Maybe you could argue there were better ways to respond to all of this, but hindsight is 20-20.

No actual leftists want to have to argue “authoritarianism was good actually.” But it’s hard for the conversation not to appear that way when we’re arguing with people who’ve been conditioned to think they’re somehow as bad or worse than Nazis and ending the thought there.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 6 days ago (6 children)

Great comment! You hit the nail on the head, proper conversation requires a factual starting point, and just conceding to conservatives and other anticommunists off the bat just so they are less hostile to you just hands them free rhetorical wins on that very basis.

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[–] thedruid@lemmy.world -5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

communism isn't bad, it just doesn't scale up. after awhile someone wants everyone else's stuff. When enough people gather together then anonymity becomes a thing. then those people start taking everyone else's stuff and we end up with Russia.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 days ago

Communism is a fully publicly owned and planned global economy, I'm not sure what you're trying to critique but it isn't Communism.

[–] ghost_of_faso3@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 days ago

'It doesnt scale up'

China has the largest high speed rail network on the planet?

[–] turnip@sh.itjust.works -2 points 6 days ago

I think what they think is that citizens have bad judgement, so it ends in Maoist policies that sound good but ignore negative externalities. The tragedy of the commons is inevitable is their view.

[–] nico198X@feddit.nl -4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

i hear what you're saying.

what i'm saying is, for myself, and at least a few "Left-curious" neo/libs/progs, we don't want to trade one shit tyranny for another. and it's obvious, documented history of some pretty glaring failures in AES. if you like, think of ppl like us as trauma victims. it's probably true anyway.

it can go a long way to offer the olive branch and reassurance that, yes, you don't want to just "red-wash" that all away, or that you aren't just enamoured with Red aesthetic and lip-service while being YET ANOTHER group of mastubatory elitists who will trample the out-group-du-jour given the opportunity.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The problem typically arises from the necessity for confrontation of anticommunist myths about AES. Anyone growing up in the West is bombarded with Anticommunism, and simply being aware that that process exists doesn't actually make you immune to it. Confronting the myths surrounding Communism is an important first step. "Red-washing" is a much, much smaller problem than you likely realize.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 days ago (22 children)

I'm not dancing around anything, if you want to discuss, then please, do so.

The DPRK is far from a paradise, but at the same time, much of its issues are externally driven.

Xi is not president for life. Term limits are removed, but he can also be removed. He's overwhelmingly popular among the party and people.

For your last point, I recommend you read Marketing Socialism. I defend what is misrepresented or demonized unjustly, because these are problems every Socialist project recieves, to varying degrees.

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[–] Nonbinary_Sahrah@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 6 days ago

Leftist are not a homogenous group, and there is a lot of criticism from people on the radical left of those authoritarian systems.

There is also a few people who dont and that glorify authoratarian aspects of communism There is also a lot of nuanced positions you cant just simplify as The Leftist as if the loose association of movements and idiologies are all a homogenoud mass