this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2025
672 points (98.6% liked)

Science Memes

17005 readers
3756 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] betanumerus@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

If vertebrae don't have it, it means they don't need it.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 33 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

that's not how evolution works. Evolution is not able to produce global maxima, only local maxima.

[–] lazyViking@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Not really. Needs is a fairly strict word. If it was needed they would not survive without. Useful, i agree with you

[–] TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Need requires context. "if they don't have it, they don't need it to survive". And survival is conditioned upon the environment. If something emerges that exploited the blindspot, then we'd need it to survive.

What was the evolutionary pressure that caused receptor orientation to be different in cephalopods that vertebral animals didn't encounter? Or did they encounter it and have other adaptations that allowed it to deal with them.

[–] tetris11@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

Dont they eventually produce global maxima by iterating towards it through the many degrees of freedom allowed by crazy mutations and time?

[–] jaennaet@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 month ago

There's no guarantee that an evolutionary search process will lead to a globally optimal solution. It's the same thing with evolutionary algorithms in computing

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The problem is that the landscape of where the global maxima are changes faster than evolution can keep up. If the environment were entirely static, then yes, mathematically speaking any random optimizer would eventually reach a global maximum. However, it could take, say, 10^50^ years or more to jump from a local maximum to a distant, higher maximum.

[–] tetris11@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

Ah good point, thanks

[–] kadup@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Imagine an alligator. Quite good at catching prey with their current anatomy.

An alligator that shoots laser beams for tracking and bullets would be even better. There's however no path from their current anatomy to this state, regardless of the randomness and timescale for mutations. In fact, in order to achieve this higher state several non advantageous intermediates would be necessary and therefore never selected for.

So no, evolution can't achieve global maxima, it can however optimize the shit out of what it's given to work with.

[–] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There needs to be pressure for animals with a mutation to reproduce more or animals without the mutation to die before reproduction. Like a disease for example. Otherwise the genes don’t spread and just disappear in the soup of all that species genes and never become dominant. Without any evolutionary pressure the mutation will only spread in one family and probably be gone after a few generations. Like there are human families that are more likely to produce offspring with 6 digits on their hands, but since it isn’t more advantageous than 5 digits (6 digit people don’t produce more offspring and 5 digit people aren’t more likely to die before reaching reproductive maturity) that mutation doesn’t spread across the entire species. Sure if you could sample the genome of every human on earth and identify every advantageous gene mutation you could build the ultimate human DNA. But that’s artificially created, something like that will never happen through evolutionary pathways.

[–] Tiger666@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] pyre@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

no they're not. by definition if you don't have what you need you don't survive. we definitively don't need it. or at least haven't for millions of years. that's different from saying we wouldn't benefit from it.

although that's not a guarantee either. more information isn't always better.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Okay true, but I still feel the comment was misleading. If it were phrased as "If vertebrae don't have it, it means it wouldn't improve their fitness" it would be wrong. I'll admit that the comment as worded is true, but it does depend on a very literal interpretation of what "needs" means. Why even post that? In my opinion, that makes it low-quality content, so worth a downvote.

[–] pyre@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

disagree. again, we don't even know if such a change would be beneficial.

also, more importantly, the post is entirely stupid.

suboptimal by what measure? became disadvantageous how? against what? last time i checked ve**rtebrates were still dominating. now even more than they did during the ages of dinosaurs.

evolution was too late to correct it... what? first of all, is it even a mistake to correct? where's the evidence of that? second of all, did evolution stop? too late how? it's complete bullshit, and if anything the original comment wasn't harsh enough on it.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm not claiming that this change in how eyes work would be an improvement. I'm claiming that the following does not hold generally: "Doesn't have adaptation X ⇒ adaptation X would not improve fitness."

[–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

yeah but that's not part of the original comment, not even by implication. the opposite is also not true so it doesn't factor in at all. even though you're not claiming it would be an improvement the original post clearly does and that's what the top level comment is countering.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yes, but the top level comment is countering it using an incorrect application of the theory of evolution. If top-level-comment really meant "needs," then it would not be a counter to the original post. If by "needs" they meant more colloquially "would be an improvement," then it may counter the original comment, but it's not actually a valid argument.