Not Just Bikes
An attempt to recreate the /r/NotJustBikes community on Lemmy. I'm just reserving the Community Name, other folks (for instance the /r/NotJustBikes mods?) are welcome to take over.
NOTE: This sublemmy (?) is in no way related to or affiliated with NotJustBikes, Jason Slaughter, etc.
#RULES
1. Be nice. Please.
I know it's the internet, but be nice. And report trolls & spammers.
2. No memes
No memes, image macros, or low-effort posts. These are easily upvoted, but they pollute the subreddit very quickly.
POSTING MEMES WILL RESULT IN A TEMPORARY BAN.
3. Stay on topic
Try to stick to posts and comments related to the themes of NJB videos, or content creation. Things like urban planning, mobility & transportation, social equity, Dutch culture, etc..
4. No Trolling
Go troll somewhere else. We don't need that shit here.
5. No comment screenshots
Please don't post screenshots of stupid comments as a post. We all know there are ignorant morons online, we don't need to bring even more attention to their stupid comments.
6. No vehicular cycling
I have no patience for advocates of vehicular cycling. You can talk about vehicular cycling, but if you promote it as an alternative to safe bike infrastructure, I will ban you. You can post that crap somewhere else.
7. No people being hit by cars/road violence
Do not show videos or pictures of people being hit by cars, or other road violence. We don't need to see that shit. We know cars are dangerous, and many people have bad memories of car crashes. Keep it out of this subreddit.
8. No tone policing
We don't need any more tone police. If you don't like the tone that Not Just Bike takes in his videos, there's a very easy solution: stop watching them.
9. No internet drama
Don't spread or promote drama over what has happened on the Internet. You're spending too much time online: go touch grass.
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Why the hell would anyone want to literally ride a bicycle right in car traffic? Bicycles are inherently slower than cars, even at halfway racing speeds. Even if you're riding at 30mph, the asshole behind you going 55mph will just as soon run your ass over, because well, car-brain..
Nobody wants to, but there is no bike lane, so......
Literally the whole video is about how one guy really did want to, and he was able to convince an entire country (or two...or four) his way was right.
You should actually watch the video, because the entire thing is about cyclists advocating against bike lanes.
No there was many more than 1
Ride the white line on the edge of the road like I do. It's just foolish and dangerous to ride in the middle of active car traffic lanes.
Umm, edit for the downvoters, we don't have bike lanes in my area. Where else would you have me ride? The middle of the highway, where I've already lost 2 friends that got hit by cars while riding bicycle?
I'll stick with the tactic that's kept me alive all this time, don't ride in the middle of the road.
In the middle of the lane. Vehicles are more likely to hit you while trying to squeeze past you. Don't let them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
Middle of the lane? Why? Like seriously why?
You might as well be a deer in the road at night, the douchebag behind you driving 20 over the speed limit while texting his hooker ain't gonna see you..
I just finished explaining why in the comment you just replied to.
What makes you think you're any more visible on the white line?
Being on the white line might not necessarily improve my visibility, but hear me out...
If you're riding right in front of the vehicle driving like an ass, you got a 100℅ chance of getting hit or run over. But if you keep your bike on the edge of the road, you significantly reduce your chances of getting run over by an idiot.
Quite the opposite. This has been statistically verified many times. You can verify the verification with a simple web search, if you really want to know.
Can you provide it?
Keep reading.
Umm, if you're driving and a deer is in the road, you'll likely hit it.
If the deer is not in the road but close to the edge, ditch, or fence, you're much less likely to hit it.
Now as a bicycle rider, think of yourself as the deer...
Brother, stop making up nonsense hypothetical scenarios, and just look at the science and the conventional wisdom developed over hundreds of years of study.
Okay, let's skip past the hypothetical shit, I've literally lost not one but two friends that got plastered into road pizza while riding a bike.
Same intersection, not the same day though, but only months apart. They apparently weren't paying attention to their surroundings. ☹️💀
I only made up the hypothetical because I... I'm sad 😭
I'm really sorry to hear about your friends. I've been fortunate enough to have only ever had close calls (a friend in hospital for weeks), but no deaths.
But the fact that you mention it's an intersection means it's really not helping your case in this discussion.
At an intersection, I hope we can all agree on this: all the same types of crash that are possible on a straight section are possible, with the addition of some others. Those others include the left hook (I'm using Australian terms for driving on the left, flip left and right if you're on a right-side drive country), where a driver who wants to turn left at the intersection, when you're going straight, partially but does not completely overtake you before turning at the intersection. T-boning, where a driver going straight through the intersection at a right angle to you hits you in the side; it can happen from the right or the left. I'll also include under T-boning the case where a driver pulls out in front of you causing you to T-bone them, since the thing the driver did wrong is the same in each case, it's just a matter of milliseconds. And a right hook, where someone turns across your path into the lane on your left, from the oncoming traffic lane.
The right hook and right T-bone are unaffected by where you ride on the road. Since they're coming from the other side, visibility is very clear.
Left T-boning is mostly unaffected, but on some intersection it's possible that being closer to the left of the lane might result in being obscured for longer. In this screenshot, I've drawn (yellow) lines from where a car on the side street might be, to where a cyclist might be at the edge of the lane (blue) and middle of the lane (green). If there's an obstacle obstructing their view, the green cyclist might be seen sooner, as shown by the line to the blue bike running through the obstacle. Very much an edge case and not what I'd focus on, but worth considering.
The left hook, however, is a big concern for cyclists. It's one of the most common incidents I've seen. Riding in the middle of the lane helps prevent it.
Here I've drawn a car in maroon, and shown the path the car wants to take with an arrow. With the green bike, the car can easily see that it cannot do this, because it would require going through the cyclist. Which they know they cannot do. They might get annoyed, but they be much more likely to wait behind until it is safe to go. But with the blue bike, many drivers will be tempted to do it, because they can get past, and they don't realise that they have not given enough time for themselves to fully exit the road before the cyclist gets to the intersection. They left hooked.
The logic with the left hook here is not too dissimilar to the side-swipe that's possible absolutely anywhere. By being in the lane, you stop a driver from passing you too close. This video from the US does a really good job of explaining it with graphics.
I'm sorry to hear that but I don't understand what that has to do with this conversation?
Cycling safety, pay attention to surroundings
Nah you've got that backwards. If you've got separate bike paths, that's the best, and it's what 100% of advocacy should be aimed towards. But when there isn't separate bike infrastructure, Forester's advice actually is sensible. You should ride in the middle of the lane. The risk of someone thinking they can squeeze past and failing is far greater than the risk of someone deliberately riding into you from behind.
To your point, I have ridden literally thousands of miles, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've witnessed a car run a stop sign or red light. But in nearly every ride, countless cars veer out of their lane and into the shoulder, especially on left-hand bends.
I will usually risk hugging the shoulder on long straight roads with good visibility, the feels like the best mix of personal safety and sharing the road with others, but never take my chances in the twisties. I want to be seen.
I'll keep over to the left when there's a shoulder that's wide enough to act as a bike lane and there's no cars parked in that shoulder for a long stretch. And on roads where the lane is extra wide and a car can comfortably pass me at well over 1 metre gap without leaving the lane. If neither of those is true, keeping left really doesn't help with "sharing the road", because others can't overtake safely. The only thing it does if I keep left is to make drivers think they might be able to squeeze past without leaving the lane.
Did you miss something? We don't have bike lanes in my area.
So, considering the lack of bike lanes, I ride the white line on the edge of the road. Like, who in their right mind would ride a bicycle in the middle of vehicle traffic?
This is incredibly dangerous, unless you mean that you're riding on the other side of the white line (sometimes called a "fog line"), on a road with a nice wide shoulder. All it does is encourage drivers to overtake at dangerously close distances when they're unable to do so safely. Taking the lane keeps you safe, because it makes you easier to see (it puts you right where drivers are already looking, instead of off to the side) and it provides an obvious indication that the only way they can overtake is if they move into the other lane. Which requires that they're able to move into the other lane. No incentive to squeeze past when it's unsafe.
I've been riding this way for 33 years, never been hit. My main bicycle is basically a mirror anyways, known by the entire county as Silver. If you can't see Silver, you don't need to be on the road anyways.
I'm also smart enough to know that whenever traffic gets too busy, it's probably a fine time for me to take a riding break and let traffic settle down. As a bike rider, to me, rule #1 is watch your own ass..
I'm gonna continue riding the way I ride as long as I ride, because I'm still alive and never had a traffic injury.
I've done that before and that only leads to every car passing me at 65 km/h (41mph) only 45cm (1.5ft), rather than moving to the other lane, passing and then going back. Outside American city cores where shoulders are wider, there's often trash and debris there. So I'd rather get yelled at by a few impatient drivers than risk my life passing closely, or risk a flat tire from glass shards or flipping over going over a broken chunk of concrete.
I'll take my chances with a potential flat tire, which doesn't often happen to me thankfully. If you have a problem running over glass shards or lumps of concrete, then that's on you, you're supposed to look where you're going.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/a8Ej4VfeCkTLFJ7TA?g_st=ac South Hill, WA, USA where I biked last year.
Even closer to town where the shoulder lane 'looks clear', you can clearly see the difference in road condition where it looks coated in a layer of sand/gravel within which glass pieces can conceal themselves. and swerving into car lanes to avoid larger obstacles is even more dangerous, anyway.
That day I took my bike on the bus from Federal Way, so I didn't ride in the city that time, but look at the shoulder width in Bellevue., you get 30cm (1ft) of space on the shoulder. If you ride on the side here, you will be treated by drivers the same as a garbabe bin out on collection day.
Maybe your local government takes care of your suburban, exurban and rural arterial roads to a point they are pristine enough and there's plenty of space for you to bike on the side. I'm happy for you then, but don't put the failures of infrastructure on the individual.
Wow, you got lots of riding space there!
In my area, some roads only have like 3 inches of pavement past the white line. Yes, it can be scary as fuck, but when there's no bike path, where else to ride?
Yes, it really can be scary riding the ~6 inches on the edge of the road, definitely not saying that's ideal, it most certainly isn't. But with no other option on some roads, I'd rather ride the white line than ride in the middle of traffic.
That's in the vehicle lane, which is the point I'm making here. It's better to be in people's direct line of vision. If they were distracted on their phone and couldn't see you in the middle of the road, they won't see you on the shoulder.
I'm trying my best not to antagonize you for your choices. Ride however you feel safest and comfortable. Riding in the road isn't safe for everyone, and riding on the shoulder or sidewalk is safer depending on your bike, what your roads look like, and the local rules. Often times like you say there's no ideal option. All I ask is you don't chastise other people just for making assessments for what is the safest option in their circumstances, based on your own generalized assessment.
You're absolutely right about that, it totally depends on the area (and my own knuckleheadedness). Of course I want all riders to be safe, I just don't see how riding in the middle of the lane is in any way safe, brakes, reflectors, etc or not.
I guess part of my side has to do with the drivers down my way. I always assume whatever vehicle behind me might not be paying attention and might be going 88MPH trying to travel through time. I just ain't trying to be in their way...
Maybe because there is no alternative?
There's no bike lanes in my area either. 33 years and counting, I ride on the white line on the edge of the road, not in the middle of the road...
I misunderstood your point. I thought you were talking about generally riding on roads open to traffic, but I understand now you were talking about "vehicular cycling". I agree with you then
Ask them next time you see them riding down the road right next to the bike lane.
Depending on the bike lane I'd rather use the street, especially if I know the bike lane ends and I'd have to use the street anyway (bike lanes are patchwork around here).
I live in an area where there are no bike lanes and very few sidewalks.
I don't know why. The point is that they can and do.
I’ll race you from my house to the Saturday market in the city center. I’ll go by bike, you can go by car. Bet you €100 that I’ll beat you there by at least 5 minutes.
Peak speed is not the same as travel time. A car is faster in terms of peak speed, even if it isn't faster in terms of travel time.
Not in the city it isn’t.
No bet, I don't have a car. My roommate does though.
Either way, I totally get you, from my own riding style though. On bicycle, I avoid red light car intersections as much as is humanly possible. Bicycles can go through the median, whether it's legal or not..
As long as there's no immediate traffic, I've found it safer and faster to just cross through the median, rather than try to mingle through an intersection with vehicles.
Not exactly saying that my riding style is best or safest, but I can get you a pizza in less than 4 minutes on a bicycle, skipping all the red lights and utilizing random median crossings (paved or not).
But, back to the main point, we don't have bike lanes here in my area, and sidewalks are sparse and incomplete. I simply do not ride right in the middle of the road, I ride on the edge, I avoid intersections, and when traffic is clear, I cross the medians.
Oh, and I ride brakeless. My shoes are my brakes. But that's besides the point, my basic point is if you have no other option, don't ride in the middle of the road, ride on the white line edge of the road. Fuck, that's the law in Mississippi.
I’m Dutch. We don’t generally mingle cyclists and car traffic outside very low traffic / low speed areas. There will be a separate bicycle path with its own traffic lights. Or even better: you can just take the bicycle highway and not encounter any traffic lights or level crossings with cars at all. Straight shot into the city center.
Also, you can’t drive your car into the city center at all, it’s a car-free zone. You have to park your car at the edge of the city center, in a parking garage or other paid spot (€3,80/hour), then you’d have to walk from there. On Saturdays it’s basically a traffic jam all the way from the ring-road to the parking garage. Meanwhile I can ride my (e-)bike straight to where I need to go and park it basically anywhere.
You’d be pulled off the road so quick if you did that here. Your bike is required to be roadworthy, which means working brakes, lights, reflectors, etc.
Sounds like actual good proper bicycle friendly infrastructure, awesome!
Honestly, I'm more of a BMX flatland rider, so my bike ain't gonna pass any of those checks, no brakes (flatlander's choice, my shoes are my brakes), no reflectors, no lights, no kickstand, no chainguard..
In BMX flatland, all that stuff is just extra weight and more parts to break. But also, flatland bikes aren't exactly intended for everyday road transportation.
Bikes meant for regular road use really should have all those parts, plus even a mirror for an extra point or two of safety.
Apparently Mississippi doesn't require you have brakes, but it does require you have lights and/or reflectors.
This website doesn't agree:
As a cyclist, you never, ever, ever want to ride right on the white line. If you can go over into the road shoulder that's often best, but assuming no shoulder, give yourself a good 50 centimetres. That gives you room to manoeuvre if you need to avoid an obstacle. When the law says "bicyclists are generally required to ride as far to the right of the roadway as practicable" (also quoted from that law about Mississippi), that's what they mean. Because being right on the line is not practicable for safety reasons.
But most cars are at least 1.8 m wide, and most lanes are no more than 3.6 m (according to this, the vast majority of roads in Mississippi have lane widths of 12 ft or less). With a cyclist riding 0.5 m from the edge, having handlebars that are 1 m wide, and the requirement to overtake being 0.9 m in Mississippi, you're looking at a minimum lane width of 4.2 m before it's not "too narrow to share". When the lane's that wide, I'm with you: ride close to the edge (close, again, being about 0.5 m). But most of the time, you're keeping yourself safer by preventing drivers close passing you.