this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2025
240 points (81.7% liked)
Memes
53801 readers
2124 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 6 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Why are you calling me fash? I'm here because i like lemmy, and i like freedom, respect for the workers, for minorities, I'm anti authoritarian, and anti nationalist.
BTW nice that mods are banning me every time i'm posting some facts.
I just asked a question about soviet invasion on Poland on 17 september 1939. So when Poland was still fighting against nazis, and only half of the country was under nazi occupation.
If soviets helped Poland, and only attack nazis, war could stop in a few months. Instead soviets decided to attack polish forces.
Few months later soviets arrested and transported thousands of polish intellectuals, officers, professors, etc, to Katyn. What happened then?
All of them were murdered. This was a big hit in a polish culture, science, and knowledge. By killing intellectuals, professors etc, polish culture were targeted, and that's why this was the genocide.
In 2010 russian admits that soviet forces did it: https://warsawinstitute.org/katyn-massacre-mechanisms-genocide/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre
And that's one of many reasons, why we don't line russia, we don't like soviet union, and we don't want to be an ally to any of them (especially now when russia is a far right wing nationalist authoritarian regime). This post also gonna be removed?
The soviets did help Poland. They prevented the Nazis from occupying it all. Also why should we trust capitalist Russia who distanced themselves from communism and everything Stalin did?
Dude, have you read what i posted? Genocide, and the occupation is not help.
I don't think that we should trust russia. Current right wing government is antiworker, homophobic, and very oligarchic. Russia needs some kind of revolution, russians need to do revolution again.
Preventing it from being occupied by the Nazis is more help than letting it be occupied by Nazis.
Oh so now you agree with me.
Like there was no other option, like, hmmm, helping Poland fight nazis, and winning the war at the beginning?
I was always anti russian government. Current imperialistic russia is a enemy of post east block countries.
The soviets tried forming an anti-nazi alliance before the war started. Promising to send in a million men. They were turned down and upon realising they were on their own, seeked out a non-aggression pact with the Nazis (which everyone had already done up to that point).
And that's way they signed Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, and then together with Nazis, they attacked Poland?
Nice strategy.
No they signed a non-aggression pact which everyone else had done at the time. The pact had spheres of influence, a clear "don't fuck with us when we do things here and we won't fuck with you do things there" there was nothing in it that said anything about some military alliance to invafe Poland.
Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed 2 weeks before the nazi invasion of Poland and 1 week before it was signed by the supreme soviet. You don't attack a country together within a week that requires months of time planning.
The Nazis invaded Poland and the polish government went into exile so the soviets rushed in to prevent land that was historically part of their territory and inhabited by many ethnic Belorussians and Ukrainians from being occupied by the Nazis. Land that had been taken from them by Poland in their war of aggression to achieve their maximum historical borders even though as I mentioned had spent so much time outside of Polish control now had sizable Belarusian and Ukrainian inhabitants.
Of course, were we to live in a timeline where the soviets did leave all of Poland to be occupied by the Nazis. Idiots like you would be going on about how stupid and evil the soviets were for not doing anything from preventing the land from falling into Nazi hands. Doing nothing to protect the people living there when they had the opportunity and allowing the Nazis to get a border even closer.
You're getting called fash because you're using fascist talking points regarding the soviets.
The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.
Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.
The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported. Calling it "genocide" while Nazi-occupied Poland was subject to the Holocaust is tantamount to Holocaust trigialization. There's mountains of evidence against the documents listed as "proof" of Soviet guilt in the Katyn Massacre:
Skip to the "forgeries" section.
Again, the reason you're getting called fascist is because you are regurgitating fascist talking points surrounding the soviets.
Incorrect.
Had the USSR attacked Nazi Germany, they would have lost. The west was non-commital and refused to make an anti-Nazi alliance with the soviets, despite a decade of trying to form one, and evidence that the west would help the Nazis if the USSR attacked first. What the soviets did instead was prevent the Holocaust from spreading. There was no genocide committed by the soviets against the Polish, this is fascist Double Genocide Theory.
This is cope. You have no proof nor explanation why the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves, nor why the ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made, nor why the supposed "evidence" is marked with fabrications, nor why eyewitnesses claimed the Nazis did it. Just claiming I have no evidence despite the fact that your only evidence is Geobbels doesn't make you right.
You're getting called a fascist because you're an anti-communist that is repeating narratives created by Nazi propagandists, including Double Genocide Theory.
Yes, the post-Communist government tried to discredit the socialist system, but this is cope. You have no proof nor explanation why the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves, nor why the ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made, nor why the supposed “evidence” is marked with fabrications, nor why eyewitnesses claimed the Nazis did it. Just claiming I have no evidence despite the fact that your only evidence is Geobbels doesn’t make you right.
Incorrect.
1931 is a more accurate starting date, when Japan invaded Manchuria, or even 1938 when the west partitioned Czechoslovakia. When the Nazis invaded Poland, Nazi Germany was seen antagonistically in the west, but not the Soviet Union, who waited 2 weeks, prevented the Nazis from taking all of Poland and thus spared half of Poland from the Holocaust, and stuck to the areas Poland had invaded and annexed from Ukraine, Lithuania, Hungary, etc. earlier.
An official statement by the anti-communists, yes. Historians don't actually agree on the incident, mainly because the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves, the ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made, the supposed “evidence” is marked with fabrications, and eyewitnesses claimed the Nazis did it.
I'm specifically calling out the fact that you are gleefully repeating Nazi propaganda as fash, not merely disagreeing with the communists. Your comments were removed for that reason.
Nope, just the post-soviet anti-communist government and the fascists. No modern historian genuinely believes the soviets ever committed genocide. The soviets did indeed attack Poland, but the Nazis committed the Katyn Massacre and the Holocaust, not the soviets.
You're confusing my point being about how the west loved the Nazis and the soviets hated them, with saying the soviets never attacked Poland. They did, and I never denied that, just soviet guilt in Katyn or claims of "genocide" by the soviets, which is fascist fiction.
The Soviets never agreed to invade Poland in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. They agreed to lines that the other should not cross in the advent of war, which the Nazis were well on their way to violate had the soviets not taken the areas Poland invaded and anexxed prior. Neither power expected the pact to hold, either, the soviets expected Nazi betrayal and the Nazis knew they were going to break the pact, both understood it as a measure to buy time, so any "agreements" weren't worth shit.
From this excellent post by comrade Anarcho-Bolshevik:
(Emphasis added.)
The decision to remember the conspiracy theory that the Soviets committed this atrocity is very much a political decision, not a logical one. It serves two purposes: anticommunism and Russophobia, both of which are still of use to the Western upper classes. That is why most anticommunists familiar with this atrocity are much less likely to be familiar with the fact that the Fascists exterminated millions of Poles in a settler‐colonial project inspired by earlier ones in North America and elsewhere.
For example, it was in the Pomeranian province that the Fascists exterminated at least 30,000 Polish civilians from October to November in 1939 alone, yet politically it is of very little use to the ruling class, so anticommunists choose to forget it. Tell me, how often, exactly, have you heard anybody discuss this slaughter? Can you name even one example…?
See also: A series of quotes corroborating the probability that the Fascists committed this massacre.
The idea that the soviets were behind the Katyn massacre, soviet genocide against Poland, and the idea that the soviets and Nazis agreed to attack Poland and split it together are all Nazi propaganda, yes. It's unsurprising that the current far-right Polish government is performing Nazi apologia and anti-communist mythmaking. I also already explained the forgeries.
You need to update your terminology. According anticommunists: genocide is just when communists do stuff. The more stuff we do, the more genocidaler it is. That’s the definition. The only correct definition, in fact. The Soviet reconstruction of Poland was an act of genocide, for example, but the IOF devastating over 90% of Gaza and massacring hundreds of thousands of civilians isn’t.
Oh of course, by bad, why didn't I consider that?
Simply saying "fact" doesn't make it so. If you actually read the Secret Protocol of Molotov-Ribbentrop, it speaks of spheres of influence, not territories to invade, which meant that if Nazi Germany invaded beyond the spheres agreed to then the agreement would be nullified. It was a measure to contain Nazi Germany and slow their assault, not an agreement to conquer all of Europe and split it up. There are no plans to invade anywhere mentioned in the Secret Protocol.
I am answering them, and you're dodging why you agree with Goebbels. The Nazis claimed the soviets killed the officers in 1940, but the bullets in the mass grave were German and dated at 1941, confirmed by the Polish Red Cross. The Nazis had many such mass graves.
Further, Poland is more far-right than the Russian Federation right now, venerates Nazis (as you yourself are doing right now by doing Nazi apologia), and is vehemontly anti-communist. Russia may be governed by right-wing nationalists, but at least it isn't upholding Nazis. Poland is one of the most bloodthirsty NATO members.
I love how the Nazis were causing havock across the east massacring everything to colonise the land they felt entitled to because of their supposed master race. Yet the moment the soviets start pushing them back and shattering their delusions they immediately call fowl and point to a massacre that looked like what they themselves had been doing the entire time. Basically saying to the west "No no guys stop fighting us. It's the soviets that are the REAL bad guys look what they did! You should be fighting alongside us instead"
Yep, Geobbels was even upset at first that the Nazis rediscovered Katyn and thought it would be bad PR for them, before inventing the soviet story.
It's not like Poland want to attack Nazi Germany in 1933, but no one wanted to join...
you're a fascist, everybody knows you're a fascist, at least own up to it and be honest with yourself
Why you don't want to answer my question regarding soviet attack on Poland, and Katyn genocide?
C'mon.
Why would I feed a fascist troll? Not like these topics haven't been discussed to death already.
Dude, you're started this discussion, you asked me before about arguments and facts. And here we're now. Now you know why Poland, and other post east blocks, don't want to be a part of new russian empire, and why we like to be a part of UE.
All I know is that you're a deranged troll.