this post was submitted on 17 May 2026
476 points (99.2% liked)

Socialism

6783 readers
23 users here now

Rules TBD.

founded 7 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't just mean personal property, I mean private ownership of the means of production and distribution. This is the germ of capitalism, but is not capitalism itself. Socialism and capitalism are systems, you cannot slice up parts of the system and identify some as capitalist and some as socialist.

Regarding Mao's significance in liberating China, I already agree with you. However, I sincerely disagree with your underplaying of Mao's contributions towards the buildup of socialism in China.

As for the Great Leap Forward, during 1949 and 1978, the per hectare yield of land sown with food crops increased by 145.9% and total food production rose 169.6%. During this period China’s population grew by 77.7%. On these figures, China’s per capita food production grew from 204 kilograms to 328 kilograms in the period in question.

In 1952, industry was 36% of gross value of national output in China. By 1975, industry was 72% and agriculture was 28%. It is quite obvious that Mao’s supposedly disastrous socialist economic policies paved the way for the rapid economic and industrial development of Reform and Opening Up.

Official Chinese statistics show that after the end of the Leap in 1962, industrial output value had doubled; the gross value of agricultural products increased by 35 percent; steel production in 1962 was between 10.6 million tons or 12 million tons; investment in capital construction rose to 40 percent from 35 percent in the First Five-Year Plan period; the investment in capital construction was doubled; and the average income of workers and farmers increased by up to 30 percent. Additionally, there was significant capital construction (especially in iron, steel, mining and textile enterprises) that ultimately contributed greatly to China's industrialization.

Heavy industry grew a great deal in this period too. Developments such as the establishment of the Taching oil field during the Great Leap Forward provided a great boost to the development of heavy industry. A massive oil field was developed in China. This was developed after 1960 using indigenous techniques, rather than Soviet or western techniques. (Specifically the workers used pressure from below to help extract the oil. They did not rely on constructing a multitude of derricks, as is the usual practice in oil fields).

See the original link for sources. Of course, there were mistakes, such as relying on the peasantry for the creation of steel in backyard furnaces. However, it is also undeniable that industrialization was rapidly achieved.

I have given my arguments as for why China is socialist, and the term "real socialism" is more religious and sentimental than logical. China is under a dictatorship of the proletariat, and has public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. This is true.

[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 hours ago

I don’t just mean personal property, I mean private ownership of the means of production and distribution. This is the germ of capitalism, but is not capitalism itself. Socialism and capitalism are systems, you cannot slice up parts of the system and identify some as capitalist and some as socialist.

I understand all of that, but I’m getting at something slightly different.

I hope you’ll agree with me that socialism in China is not yet fully built—that it is still in a raw, unfinished state.

In your view, what will socialism in China look like once it reaches its completed form?

How will people be induced—through the use of "soft power"—to give up private property? Or will they be compelled to give it up at all?

However, I sincerely disagree with your underplaying of Mao’s contributions towards the buildup of socialism in China.

Yes, Mao did lay the industrial and agrarian foundations over the course of several decades—I agree with that.

However, don't forget that by the 1940s, the USSR had risen to second place in the world in terms of industrial capacity! Stalin even appeared on the cover of Time. The entire world acknowledged it. And this wasn't merely a foundation, but a fully operational industrial sector. Furthermore, you can scarcely imagine the destitute state the country was in back in 1930.

Now, perhaps, you understand why I consider something else entirely to be truly remarkable.

the term “real socialism” is more religious and sentimental than logical.

You’re trying to take a jab at me again with this "incorrect socialism" argument.

Okay, let me be more precise, then. In that video, the host referred to Chinese socialism as Maoism—specifically stating that Maoism is a distorted superstructure built upon Marxism and Leninism. That is precisely—word for word—how it was viewed in the USSR back then.

And let me reiterate: I didn't say this to you; the USSR said it. Every single film in the Soviet Union was subjected to rigorous censorship before being aired on television.

China is under a dictatorship of the proletariat

Yes—except that the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" was struck from the CPC Charter in the early 80s... in case you didn't know.