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Nonexistent moderation on Beehaw /c/neurodivergence (aussie.zone)

submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by Grail@aussie.zone to c/support@beehaw.org

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c/neurodivergence isn't being moderated at all lately. Three months ago there was the great post from NoOnesLazyInLazyTown@beehaw.org concerning ableism against people with NPD, and the amount of toxicity I saw in that thread was shocking. Some great people pushing back on the ableism and hate there, but I couldn't believe those hateful comments were being left up, or the sheer volume of them.

Yesterday I posted a new article I wrote also concerning NPD, hoping I would get the same kind of positive response I've gotten from Beehaw in the past when talking about neurodiversity. But instead I saw nothing but hate, personal attacks, and vicious toxicity. This isn't the kind of discourse I come to Beehaw to see, and I don't think I'm alone.

Looking at the community history, it looks like the post volume has dramatically reduced since immediately before that first NPD post. I'm not surprised people are avoiding the community, I don't intend to use it anymore either if what I received yesterday is going to be the norm.

The modlog of this community hasn't been touched in 7 months, and the only comment removal visible at all is tagged with the removal reason "stupid comment", which I frankly find quite ironic.

Can we please have some actual moderation on this community? If there is absolutely nobody else who can volunteer their time then I'd even be happy to do it Myself.

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[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 29 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

this whole thing has been a mess so, here are some bullet points of what we expect going forward.

most immediately: both sides of this are going to have to make peace with being uncomfortable. it is Grail's right to argue the premise that there is ableism against people with NPD; but, it is also the right of everyone else to disagree with that, and to disagree with it for personal experience reasons. if that's a problem for you, don't engage with this stuff and block people, full stop. genuinely: do something else. this is our third discussion on this subject and i have seen exactly zero minds changed as a result on either side, so i doubt you're going to be the first if you're obstinate enough.

if you would like more elaboration on the line we take here, please see our essay On Content Removal, and specifically this section:

However, from a pragmatic standpoint: Beehaw is ultimately a public space - curated as it may be - and you will be exposed to content you neither agree with nor feel comfortable with as a product of that. This is perfectly fine. It is also fine to disagree with some things we allow here that you personally would not. These are normal parts of existing in public spaces with other people and using services that are not your own respectively. But that also means you must be willing to compromise or take personal action to protect yourself sometimes - our moderation cannot and will not guarantee a completely agreeable space for you.

From a logistical standpoint: we simply cannot privilege your personal discomfort over anyone else’s, and we cannot always cater specifically to you and what you want. Your personal positions on right or wrong are not inherently more valid than someone else’s when weighing most questions of how we should moderate this space. There are often plenty of people who do not feel like you that we must also consider in moderation decisions.

secondarily:

it is understandable that neopronouns (especially of the sort in play here) give people trouble, but if someone politely asks you to use their pronouns/corrects you on what their pronouns are then we'd request that you either do that or just disengage entirely. this seems pretty straightforward. you especially do not need to give your opinion on the validity of them, because it benefits nobody.
same deal with the word "narcissist"--if someone doesn't want to be called that personally, honor the request, find some other agreeable word to use between you, or just don't argue and move on with your day. there are undoubtedly more important things you could be doing besides getting into an argument over whether this is a proper ask to honor.

[–] jarfil@beehaw.org 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

this is our third discussion on this subject and i have seen exactly zero minds changed

FWIW, I haven't read the previous discussions, and this one changed my mind in a few ways, so that's something, which leads me to...

don't engage with this stuff and block people

Technical question 1: as an alternative to a full block, is there a way to "soft block", or tag, or whatever, some people, to act as a sort of CW?

if someone politely asks you to use their pronouns/corrects you

I think part of the issue here, lies in what different people consider to be "polite".

Technical question 2: what is the policy about mainly submitting links to own posts on external sites? Some places would see that as "self promotion", but I could see the value of keeping a canonical source for one's exposés. What is the stand of Beehaw in that regard?

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Wrt technical question 2, I don't personally believe this should run afoul of self promotion guidelines. This was not a monetized service, just this person's personal thoughts.

I think this method actually works really well for having more in-depth discussions, so you can have a lot of background information in a longer form piece that lets you keep the post itself about a tighter discussion, rather than being a text dump. It's also more useful as a method to use for reference elsewhere.

I've been considering doing this for some of my posts, I just don't have a blog myself. :p

[–] jarfil@beehaw.org 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Good point about monetization. There could still be issues like political or religious views, though.

It would be nice to have some guidelines about stuff like topics, frequency, whether there should be a summary of the link content included with the post (like in the case of news), and similar.

I used to keep personal pages and blogs since the 1990s, but lately got fed up with the constant spam and intrusion attempts, and health issues didn't make it easier. I've been considering at some point migrating everything to markdown on something like GitHub Pages, with the added bonus of revision tracking, and just linking to it in whatever way... with forking as a solution to the bus factor.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 5 points 4 months ago

It would be nice to have some guidelines about stuff like topics, frequency, whether there should be a summary of the link content included with the post (like in the case of news), and similar

fair point. I guess I would say that beehaw is in a place where more content and more things to talk about is basically always better, so admins and mods are going to leave the floodgates open until they have a reason to moderate it. The news communities have no explicit requirement to summarize the content in the post - some folks just do that to highlight a specific point. At least that's what I do.

[–] can@beehaw.org 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Technical question 1: as an alternative to a full block, is there a way to "soft block", or tag, or whatever, some people, to act as a sort of CW?

Not ideal, but Sync for Lemmy premium (ultra) has a custom tagging/highlighting feature. Not sure about other apps. It's subscription or a large lifetime payment. But there is cloud syncing (and other features).

[–] jarfil@beehaw.org 1 points 4 months ago

Right, I forgot about that. Maybe I'll give it a try, only it feels a lot like lock-in 🙁

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 5 points 4 months ago

Thank you. I have no wish to silence discussion on the matter, I'm more than happy to talk about the issue with people who disagree respectfully. I only have a problem with the kind of people who call Me slurs and misgender Me because I stick up for disabled people and have an unusual gender. And I can see you've removed a lot of those comments, so thank you.

[–] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 33 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I went and looked at your cited post, and am confused what you are upset about. People disagreeing with you? People thinking an argument for Donald trump in the name of inclusivity is absurd?

I also noticed that you claim yourself to be a narcissist, and find it somewhat ironic that you choose to try and take down/over a community over a lukewarm response to your narcissism argument, being quite narcissist yourself in doing so.

That being said any unmoderated community should be assigned to (a) new caretaker(s).

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 24 points 4 months ago (1 children)

"Symptoms include an excessive need for admiration, disregard for others' feelings, an inability to handle any criticism, and a sense of entitlement."

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 13 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

In talking to folks with various axis 'disorders' it's important to remember you are talking to a person, not a series of diagnostic criteria or symptoms, get to know them and understand why they think the way they do, working with them instead of against them and worsening their trauma.

Us ND folks aren't all the same and symptoms of a very understandable reaction to trauma are not our entire personality, thanks!

[–] Radiant_sir_radiant@beehaw.org 22 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I've upvoted your post because I perceive you as respectfully voicing your opinion and mentioning supporting observations. I don't get these vibes from @Grail@aussie.zone's rants at all.

Inclusion and tolerance are important, but I feel like @Grail@aussie.zone is abusing these concepts. And that may or may not be a part of their diagnosis (who could even tell for sure), but the point is, people can't expect everybody around them to accommodate each and every aspect of their state of mind all the time. Just as @Grail@aussie.zone has a right to voice an opinion (withing the boundaries set by the community's rules), so does everybody else. And that means people have a right to disagree with each other and/or call out obvious BS.

TL;DR: This is generally an extraordinarily tolerant community, but most people here are not therapists or psychiatrists looking to do pro-bono work.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Thank you.

Oh, I guess I am used to folks with various axis 'disorders' so I can see where @Grail@aussie.zone is coming from as I can see past the diagnosis or symptoms and it's true, being autistic one of my special interests is behaviour so I am more well versed in these things and I can tend to forget that others might not be or might see things differently to me as someone who sees what folks are responding to actually/with a different context.

Okay, I do agree that people shouldn't expect others to acomodate them, however, I think it would be a much nicer world if we did at least try and listen to folk's actual arguments rather than seeing them as a bunch of diagnostic criteria or symptoms and thus instantly dismiss their opinion.

I also do know it's difficult when trying to have discussions online (true offline too) to maintain a sense of civility or to be told that how we have been thinking/referring to folks for years is wrong, especially when someone else seems so adamant that it is because they can come off looking unreasonable, however, I think taking a step back and at least trying to see things from a different perspective can be helpful in making the world a brighter and more caring place.

Yeah, that is fair that folks have the right to argue in favour or against something, however I do agree with @Grail@aussie.zone that not many really engaged with the post seriously and They had to tank a lot of abuse or generally upsetting replies, though not all of it was abuse I agree there. I get that many folks thought it was BS. However, I suspect that is from years of media and conditioning/the general 'zeitgeist' being told that folks with NP'D' or 'narcissists' are evil and bad or yes, fairly those who have trauma from growing up with parents who had NP'D' or other axis 'disorders'.

I have seen great shifts in understanding in recently years though away from the idea that everyone with NP'D' is like this or will always be like this and I am glad. However, I think people with the diagnosis or symptoms should be listened to, even if it is difficult to as they may be understandably upset or angry about such misunderstandings or treatment at those who do not understand it etc.

Thank you for engaging with me on this.

[–] Radiant_sir_radiant@beehaw.org 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I took my time writing a lengthy response to this, but considering the current state of affairs I'm not sure it's a good idea to continue this discussion at the moment, even if in a strictly theoretical and stressedly respectful way. Maybe we can cross paths some other day in some other forum, I think I'd quite enjoy exchanging ideas with you. In the meantime take care.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I am genuinely not sure what you mean by the current state of affairs.

However, fair enough and I hope that you take care 🙂

[–] Radiant_sir_radiant@beehaw.org 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I am genuinely not sure what you mean by the current state of affairs.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound mysterious, I just didn't think it was necessary to elaborate.

The thing is that there are three overlapping discussions on pronouns and the choice of certain words now, and as much as I appreciate the mutual exchange of ideas, I feel like a lot of what I'd have to say could be interpreted by some people as (re)starting arguments that lead nowhere... in other words, the return on investment in this thread is rather low.
Not to mention that I've started finding the whole topic tiresome. I'm all for people being who they want to be without judgement (and I have decades of past actions to prove that), but I also have the right not to care about other people's perception of themselves or have that perception imposed upon me. And I'm invoking that right now for the sake of my own wellbeing. A few days without social media sound just about right.

You take care too, and see you in another thread sometime!

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 2 points 4 months ago

Thank you for explaining!

Thanks, see you around 🙂

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm ND myself, thanks! The person I was responding to seemed confused as to why the poster is so upset with folks having mild disagreement with their statements, and I provided context.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Oh, did it looked like I was claiming you were not ND? I did try to specify Us ND folks, perhaps it came off incorrectly.

Okay, well it did I think come off as seeing them as a set of symptoms rather than a person, but I do understand your attempt at providing helpful context, though personally I do not think those are the reasons the person was upset.

The poster had to endure a lot of abuse in that post and so I think it is understandable, NP'D' or not that anyone might be upset and drained after that.

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I didn't look at the post myself, I was just going off of the statement I responded to stating it was "mild disagreement." That's on me. As for the symptoms, I can explain in my own words next time, that may read better.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 4 points 4 months ago

Fair enough.

Thank you for wanting to do that, I at least appreciate it.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

While I would like to have a discussion with you, I'm going to have to ask you to use My preferred pronouns. I use capitalised pronouns, as it says in My bio. That means you call Me "You" instead of "you". And please don't call Me a n*rcissist, that word is a slur and should only be used by people from within the community, not by neurotypicals.

[–] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 37 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Respectfully, I dont read anyone's bio. If you ask me to use your preferred pronouns in interactions with you that's fine with me, capitalization isnt a pronoun though. (How would that even apply in verbal communication?)

Narcissist isnt a slur, it is simply the proper word for a person with certain pronounced character traits which amount to a narcissistic personality... In fact your whole reply reads like a bad faith or troll response on second read.

Lastly I am neurodivergent myself, having ADHD. Not sure why that matters anyway

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

If someone from an affected community is telling you that something is a slur, perhaps it might be better to listen to them as they are likely to know more about it than anyone else.

Those with NP had a very understandable reaction to trauma and it is a shame how they are treated by the rest of us neurodivergent folks not least because it isn't actually useful in helping them out and just worsens the reaction to trauma.

There are ways we can all work together though and one of those is talking to and listening to folks with NP or any of the "axis of different 'disorders'" when they tell you something is a problem.

I have friends with various 'axis disorders' and they know exactly what they need and how they can be helped, after all of this kind of trauma reaction comes from abuse, a lack of understanding and lack of love. Do you think more of that will be useful?

[–] Senal@programming.dev 16 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Or perhaps decide that interaction with such a person isn't viable.

There is no requirement to adopt others particular eccentricities or needs, choosing to not engage can also be a valid choice.

There are of course potential downsides to this, but if each person is unwilling to adhere to a common contract of communication then the cessation of communication is a reasonable response.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yes, that can be better in some cases than arguing and making things worse overall.

[–] Senal@programming.dev 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Choosing not to engage can also be a positive rather than just the prevention of negatives.

load more comments (3 replies)

[–] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

It is literally the official technical term for a person with narcistic personality traits, we call those people narcissists. Granted that has a distinct negative connotation, but that is simply due to what kind of person narcissists overwhelmingly are. In fact I would be hard pressed to find alternative terms that are accurate and not equally or more "offensive".

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Many 'official' terms have been used and dropped over the years for the offense and opression they cause to those they impacted, it's not unusual to it be pointed out that a term is offensive and that we should stop using it.

The thread, article and The OP made it very clear that NPD or a person with NPD are better terms if you are genuinely looking for better terms which aren't offensive/opressive.

[–] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 13 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Those terms are just abbreviations to hide the ugly word though. How would you describe a person with a narcistic personality profile without using the term narcistic, or alternatives with even more overtly negative connotations such as selfish, egotistical, demanding, antisocial, obnoxious, dismissive, and so forth?

I understand the value of inclusive language, but it should not obstruct communication.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 1 points 4 months ago

I guess I would use some of those words but probably more in describing actions rather than the person themselves, most of the time anyway. As it's easy to portray someone as 'evil' based on a single word in common use that likely oppresses and doesn't see the person underneath the label/actions, which is what 'narcissist' often does for/to most people I believe.

Sure, however, I don't think it obstructs it as much as encourages folks to think more about what they're saying rather than relying on a shortcut in language which in my opinion and it would seem the opinion of those with NP'D' is harmful and encourages harmful thinking.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 2 points 4 months ago

*You

[–] darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org 27 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

I don't know about the moderation but the "negativity" is because your take on narcissism being an ableist slur is nonsense. I can't tell if you're actually seriously deluded or just a very commited troll. You're not going to find much traction getting people to feel sorry for narcissists, especially Trump. But hey, maybe you can go to Truth Social, I'm sure this would play well. You can tell all the fascists how intolerant the left is.

And you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near moderation.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You and I probably agree on more things than we disagree on, but I feel you are being unnecessarily mean towards Grail. If you don't like their posts or you disagree with their fundamental points, simply stop engaging. See Alyaza's comment on this thread.

[–] darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org 3 points 4 months ago

I already did, and I blocked them.

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

*You, I use capitalised pronouns.

And please stop spreading lies about My opinion of Trump. I don't claim him as one of us, I don't want to be associated with him, and I don't think he deserves help. I can respect a respectful disagreement, but lying about Me and nisgendering Me isn't kind.

[–] apotheotic@beehaw.org 23 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Can Grail elaborate on why Grail uses capitalised personal pronouns? On one hand, I want to respect Grail's pronouns and am open to the fact that maybe I am simply uninformed on the topic or something to that effect. On the other hand, I am hesitant to refer to someone with capitalised personal pronouns since that has historically only been used for deities and royalty and comes with a hefty, hefty subtext of power. Can Grail elaborate?

[–] goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org 13 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm also curious. I tried reading their medium post on it and it didn't have an answer other than we people capitalize gods pronouns in Christianity

[–] Radiant_sir_radiant@beehaw.org 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

ISTR some essay about OP not identifying as a lesbian anymore for reasons I didn't quite understand, but considering themselves a goddess now. I must stress though that I only skimmed the text and couldn't be bothered to reread it for this post, so if you want a reliable source you should find it on OP's website. There are links to it all over the threads in question.

[–] goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 4 months ago

Tried read it and was just rambling

[–] Grail@aussie.zone 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I just posted about that yesterday

https://aussie.zone/post/11011399?scrollToComments=true

[–] apotheotic@beehaw.org 14 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Grail just linked the medium post which I already read, unfortunately. But, scrolling to the comments, I see that Grail has mentioned that Grail identifies as a divine being, a goddess. I don't think its possible for me to, at this point, understand Grail's gender identity. Out of respect for Grail I will just forego pronoun use entirely when interacting with Grail.

[–] RadioRat@beehaw.org 11 points 4 months ago

Cluster B personality disorders have a heavy stigma because of the abusive behaviors so common to the disorders.

It’s hard to have a neutral conversation about NPD if you have been traumatized by someone with NPD or other PDs. Personally, I will usually distance myself from anyone with cluster B traits to protect myself since those behaviors are very triggering for me. That’s more about me than it is about them.

I also understand that personality disorders are some of the most painful disorders to have in virtue of the great human pain of the world taking issue with something that you are and can’t easily change. If you’ve got NPD and are in therapy, working on your behaviors, and striving not to harm others with your hurt, that’s commendable!

When people complain about narcissists, they’re probably complaining about abuse perpetrated by narcissists. It’s an important distinction that isn’t commonly made. Nobody wants to devote care and understanding to somebody they see and unlikely or incapable of reciprocating. But that’s an asshole assumption to make.

It’s pretty disheartening to see a community that’s big on inclusivity respond judgmentally and FWIW, I’m glad you shared the article. At the same time, I would strive not to take the backlash personally.

[–] Kayel@aussie.zone 7 points 4 months ago

Relevant comments regarding moderation, for context https://aussie.zone/post/6548147

This has been a journey and I've absorbed a lot. I'm going to go touch some grass and chat to someone about the weather. Goodbye Lemmy, I hope you sort this one out.

[–] kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago

I am willing to help with moderation