Asklemmy
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
Does it count if I've actually driven tanks?
Not unless you enjoyed the crunching sounds
YES
They would have burned me as a heretic in the middle ages.
- Carl Jung
Just like calling someone a "witch" or heretic in the middle ages, a "barbarian", or "savage", or "commie" or "pinko" in the 20th century, these terms are less about the actual meaning, and more about a demonization, scapegoating, or a power relation between the dominant class, and a group they seek to malign and rally their people around.
Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.
"Tankie" had a meaning that generally referred to non-pacifist leftists (or those that agreed with using violence to defend socialist projects), but now it just means, "any leftist I don't like".
It functions in the exact same way that "commie" did in the the McCarthy era, as a xenophobic and western-supremacist scapegoating of socialist countries, and an internal purging of the working-class communist movement.
It's additionally useful because it deters people from reading or engaging with the worldwide communist / socialist movement.
If someone uses this term, this is what they're doing without realizing it:
now it just means, "any leftist I don't like".
With respect, there's a bit more to it than that.
The way political discussions are often policed on ML instances (This one, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear) is not conducive to helping new people see your point of view. If a, let's say, social democrat says something critical of the CCP and then is immediately censured or banned, they are going to be left with a very negative impression that feeds into the stereotypes that already exist about these instances.
Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.
Aren't people on ML instances also doing the exact same thing when they shout down and decry the wretched "liberals" (which seems to refer to anyone left-of-centre who doesn't support communist party rule)? Whether it's "tankie" or "liberal", it only further entrenches the us vs them mindset.
It's a shame that leftist infighting exists to such a degree when we often share about 95% of the same views, compared to the general public.
The way political discussions are often policed on ML instances (This one, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear) is not conducive to helping new people see your point of view.
If you ask in earnest, you'll get good responses. A good number of people ask questions not to learn a different point of view, but to reinforce their own existing biases, which naturally becomes exhausting. Kind of like how POC get tired of justifying their existence to white supremacists, communists often for good reason get tired of trying to justify the existence of countries who choose to follow their own path, outside of the model of bourgeois democracy.
Aren’t people on ML instances also doing the exact same thing when they shout down and decry the wretched “liberals” (which seems to refer to anyone left-of-centre who doesn’t support communist party rule)? Whether it’s “tankie” or “liberal”, it only further entrenches the us vs them mindset.
Liberal, unlike tankie, has a fairly precise meaning in political discourse. It can be used too loosely IMO, but it generally means pro-capitalism, pro-individual freedom (including to exploit labor power to earn surplus value), pro free-market, pro-free speech (for all including reactionaries), pro wage-slavery, as well as specific limitations imposed on those considered outside of the "community of the free". Its important to realize that even the US mis-definition of liberal (as vaguely socially progressive) includes all of the above, and the internationally accepted definition of liberal, is right wing (for example, the right wing party in Australia is the liberal party). The best book I can recommend here, is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter-history.
Not only that, but liberals rule most of the world, and especially most of the economies and governments of anglo-speaking countries, extracting a surplus from the sale of their labor power (who are mostly extremely poorly paid proletarians in the global south), and are responsible for most of the suffering of working-class people worldwide.
If you ask in earnest, you’ll get good responses. A good number of people ask questions not to learn a different point of view, but to reinforce their own existing biases, which naturally becomes exhausting.
That is understandable, however I was more talking about good-faith attempts to express views that are contrary to ML orthodoxy being dogpiled, removed, and banned. I have personal direct experience with this, as do many others who have attempted to engage in political discussions in ML communities. Perhaps users of the ML persuasion are used to being attacked and this why contrarian views are so heavily moderated on ML instances, but quite often this defensive response only leads to alienating other leftists who could be sympathetic to your point of view.
Also, I already understand quite well the differences between classical, social, and neo-liberalism, and how the term is used in the US; I have a degree in political science. My point was that users on ML instances weaponize the term in the same way that other users utilize the term "tankie" in order to dismiss people who disagree with them, ad hominem.
No I'd rather be morally righteous and sit on my ass and blame "the left" as the world collapses.
Maybe?
What the heck is a tankie, anyways? Every person I have asked has had a different answer, and the vast majority of these definitions don't really fit any major communities on Lemmy, not even Hexbear or Lemmygrad.
I have been called a tankie for numerous reasons, like saying that people should read Marx, to saying the US is a net negative on global stability.
Is being a Marxist sufficient for being a tankie? What about a Marxist-Leninist? Are only Dengists tankies? Is Anarchism the only non-tankie leftist position? I've even seen Anarchists be called tankies over on Lemmy.world, which is currently undergoing Red Scare-era anti-leftist witch hunts (like return2ozma's recent ban for "bad-faith spam").
I think this question needs a definition first. If you ask 10 different people what a "tankie" is, you'll get 11 different answers.
This is the crux of it: where once there was some kind of definition, now it's just a snarl word for "leftist who makes points I can't refute."
Yep, it's Lemmy's Red Scare.
I am curious if there is going to be a schizm between .world aligned instances and Hexbear/grad/.ml aligned instances, where .world sees an eventual gradual exodus of leftists as they recieve a steady influx of liberals from Reddit.
Lemmy's own multipolar world.
I just don't see the point of using lemmy unless they're a leftist in the first place.
Reddit already exists, and has a much bigger userbase that's already pro-US and heavily anti-communist.
If it's just because reddit took away the app treats, that's kind of a sad reason to use an explicitly anti-corporate software, but I'm sure there's a chunk of ppl on lemmy don't think much past that.
Let's analyze it.
Reddit is declining in a way liberals can't deny. The more ideological among these liberals attempt to leave, but without theory, without knowledge of Marxism, or even Anarchism, without a firm understanding of Historical and Dialectical Materialism, their world view is framed in a manner that casts Capitalism as bad, in an almost Ultraleftist manner, but Red Scare propaganda still makes Marxism spooky.
They occupy a space that considers Capitalist countries with pure nuance and critical support, but only judge leftist movements as though they are Ultras, and nothing is satisfactory.
From there, Liberals seek a replacement, and further still they don't quite accept federation, so they go to the largest generalist instance. This is Lemmy.world, so they get to have a space filled with ex-redditors kicked out by Capitalism's failings, but unwilling to embrace any actual alternative, occupying a weird middle ground.
Therefore, Lemmy.world appeals to radical, theoryless liberals, with no specific or niche interests, and creates an echo-chamber around that specific anti-specificity.
Just my 2 cents.
Dialectically, I believe eventually .world will defed from .ml, or vice-versa, from some unimportant inciting incident, creating a multi-polar Lemmy, so to speak, but that's a bit odd to say directly to you. Either way, I see a contradiction that appears to be growing, so Dialectically there will likely be a shift from the quantitative to qualitative, so to speak.
That makes sense. lemmy.ml won't be the one to defed from any of the larger servers, because we want to promote an interconnected fediverse, even if it does mean a lot of cross interaction and potential fights between pro and anti-communists.
Other servers are free to defederate if they wish, obvi its up to a server-owner to run their server how they see best. Even if there's more rifts in the fediverse, I'm not too worried... the long-term trend though will be towards instances that connect with the most people, and don't shut themselves out.
I agree with promoting inter-connectedness, I am on Lemmy.ml as opposed to grad or hexbear precisely because I believe in fostering that connection. I do think it's more likely .world defeds, but currently they want to maintain that same vision of interconnectedness. I can see .world putting it to a vote and letting users defed, to save face, eventually.
I agree, if there does become a multi-polar Lemmy, there will be healthier growth from the more open instances.
but only judge leftist movements as though they are Ultras
the radlib/ultra/maoist overlaps are a source of fascination for me.
IMO it stems from a reaction to Red Scare Propaganda, a counter to it, combined with Marx himself being thoroughly de-fanged into being "good, but outdated." Marxists are harmless, or even have a few good points, but Capitalism won!
They believe Red Scare Propaganda was purely about Marx himself and not leftist movements, they realize America is Imperialist but also believe their propaganda to be true.
It's a weird and likely unique overlap that will simply no longer exist as time goes on and we move beyond the Red Scare ever further, and Capitalism continues to decline.
If there is to be a shift from the quantitative to the qualitative, then I think that—whatever of the proximate cause that breaks the camel’s back—this US election will be the ultimate cause.
That's a good point, and I'm inclined to agree. I hadn't actually put 2 and 2 together there, haha, but it makes a lot of sense.
We will see if the saber rattling actually goes anywhere this time, but it won't be gone for long if it doesn't.
What's the definition of tankie ?
Explained in this post to !nostupidquestions@lemmy.world.
Supposedly it is a pejorative label applied to authoritarian communists, particularly Marxist–Leninist socialists. I presume it is the "pejorative" part that people do not like, b/c many of the places labelled as tankies by others unabashedly do precisely that!
I've only used the term twice myself, both kinda self-questioning what it even means, but if it is truly pejorative, then I should stop regardless.
I am to the left of Ronald Reagan. A lot of people would classify that as tankie.
But that’s not a no.
I’ll take that as a yes for you. If you are a Tankie you should stand up for your values and be proud!
The only reason why you would deny it or hide it is if you have an agenda.
Tankie is a floating signifier, a pejorative, a thought-terminating cliché, a rhetorical cudgel.
The only reason why you would deny it or hide it is if you have an agenda.
Or because it’s a thought-terminating pejorative. And in any case, just as it is impossible to be unbiased, it is impossible to be agendaless. By implying that I have some secret agenda, you’re doubling down on McCarthyism.
I wish stalin drove tanks straight into west berlin, then france, then the UK, then atlantis, then NYC, then chicago, then seattle, then anchorage, then Tokyo, then Seoul, then Beijing, then KFC/tacobell.
Sorry nerd, that was Trotsky that wanted that, and your boi put an icepick in his brain for being good at it.
Love Trotsky and hate how they did him after all he did for the revolution, but Trotskyists annoy the fuck out of me.
Oh, yeah, with all the tanks the USSR had in 1923 
He was that good! Also the Red Army actually captured some tanks from Allied forces that were helping the Whites during the war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
Bonus fun fact: Three of the captured Mark Vs were recommissioned to defend Stalingrad
i am a meat popsicle
I have a new favorite description for human that I hear today: terrified electric meat. Perfectly sums up the human experience
Idk. I'm really bad at history and such cause I never pay attention. I used to take everything I saw on the internet at face value, so I decided to slow down on current news. Doesn't help that I like programming and video games a lot, so I don't spend a lot of time thinking about world events.
I just like communities that are tolerant and won't let people bully the lgbt or the disabled. It feels less tiring.
Believe it or not, some people would call you a tankie for that.
I never got called a tankie, so idk about that.
Then again, I rarely participate in political discussions that I don't know about. I try to read as much as possible to get an idea, but I never go in dept, like read sources.
I'm going to go to uni soon. I'll try to spend more time into learning history properly.
Good!
Let me know if you want some basic Marxist recommendations.
I was thinking of diving head first into das kapital. I'm not sure if 3 courses of philosophy are enough. I was going to ask my philosophy teacher about it, but I'm a bit scared to ask haha.
I would be glad to get some recommendations though.
I def recommend against starting with das kapital, at least until the advanced / intermediate stages. Its a slog, and not really the best introduction.
Here's a Marxism study plan, with a good number of audiobooks / audiobook torrents for them.
Yes.
The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.
YES
Everybody to the left of biden is considered a tankie nowdays, and I'm proud of being to the left of (and opposed to) genocide enablers.