this post was submitted on 06 Jun 2024
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I keep seeing this instance is overrun with tankies so hey, lets do an informal survey like I've seen on hexbear

respond with YES or NO in the first line of your comment and i'll tally everything in a couple of days, lets say I'll try and collect everything on the sunday the 9th (10+gmt sorry)

not sure thisll work, be nice, have fun

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[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

YES

They would have burned me as a heretic in the middle ages.

  • Carl Jung

Just like calling someone a "witch" or heretic in the middle ages, a "barbarian", or "savage", or "commie" or "pinko" in the 20th century, these terms are less about the actual meaning, and more about a demonization, scapegoating, or a power relation between the dominant class, and a group they seek to malign and rally their people around.

Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.

"Tankie" had a meaning that generally referred to non-pacifist leftists (or those that agreed with using violence to defend socialist projects), but now it just means, "any leftist I don't like".

It functions in the exact same way that "commie" did in the the McCarthy era, as a xenophobic and western-supremacist scapegoating of socialist countries, and an internal purging of the working-class communist movement.

It's additionally useful because it deters people from reading or engaging with the worldwide communist / socialist movement.

If someone uses this term, this is what they're doing without realizing it:

[–] kabe@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

now it just means, "any leftist I don't like".

With respect, there's a bit more to it than that.

The way political discussions are often policed on ML instances (This one, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear) is not conducive to helping new people see your point of view. If a, let's say, social democrat says something critical of the CCP and then is immediately censured or banned, they are going to be left with a very negative impression that feeds into the stereotypes that already exist about these instances.

Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.

Aren't people on ML instances also doing the exact same thing when they shout down and decry the wretched "liberals" (which seems to refer to anyone left-of-centre who doesn't support communist party rule)? Whether it's "tankie" or "liberal", it only further entrenches the us vs them mindset.

It's a shame that leftist infighting exists to such a degree when we often share about 95% of the same views, compared to the general public.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The way political discussions are often policed on ML instances (This one, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear) is not conducive to helping new people see your point of view.

If you ask in earnest, you'll get good responses. A good number of people ask questions not to learn a different point of view, but to reinforce their own existing biases, which naturally becomes exhausting. Kind of like how POC get tired of justifying their existence to white supremacists, communists often for good reason get tired of trying to justify the existence of countries who choose to follow their own path, outside of the model of bourgeois democracy.

Aren’t people on ML instances also doing the exact same thing when they shout down and decry the wretched “liberals” (which seems to refer to anyone left-of-centre who doesn’t support communist party rule)? Whether it’s “tankie” or “liberal”, it only further entrenches the us vs them mindset.

Liberal, unlike tankie, has a fairly precise meaning in political discourse. It can be used too loosely IMO, but it generally means pro-capitalism, pro-individual freedom (including to exploit labor power to earn surplus value), pro free-market, pro-free speech (for all including reactionaries), pro wage-slavery, as well as specific limitations imposed on those considered outside of the "community of the free". Its important to realize that even the US mis-definition of liberal (as vaguely socially progressive) includes all of the above, and the internationally accepted definition of liberal, is right wing (for example, the right wing party in Australia is the liberal party). The best book I can recommend here, is Losurdo's Liberalism - A counter-history.

Not only that, but liberals rule most of the world, and especially most of the economies and governments of anglo-speaking countries, extracting a surplus from the sale of their labor power (who are mostly extremely poorly paid proletarians in the global south), and are responsible for most of the suffering of working-class people worldwide.

[–] kabe@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you ask in earnest, you’ll get good responses. A good number of people ask questions not to learn a different point of view, but to reinforce their own existing biases, which naturally becomes exhausting.

That is understandable, however I was more talking about good-faith attempts to express views that are contrary to ML orthodoxy being dogpiled, removed, and banned. I have personal direct experience with this, as do many others who have attempted to engage in political discussions in ML communities. Perhaps users of the ML persuasion are used to being attacked and this why contrarian views are so heavily moderated on ML instances, but quite often this defensive response only leads to alienating other leftists who could be sympathetic to your point of view.

Also, I already understand quite well the differences between classical, social, and neo-liberalism, and how the term is used in the US; I have a degree in political science. My point was that users on ML instances weaponize the term in the same way that other users utilize the term "tankie" in order to dismiss people who disagree with them, ad hominem.

[–] FungiDebord@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago

No I'd rather be morally righteous and sit on my ass and blame "the left" as the world collapses.

[–] D61@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Does it count if I've actually driven tanks?

Not unless you enjoyed the crunching sounds

[–] Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am to the left of Ronald Reagan. A lot of people would classify that as tankie.

[–] mholiv@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] mholiv@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’ll take that as a yes for you. If you are a Tankie you should stand up for your values and be proud!

The only reason why you would deny it or hide it is if you have an agenda.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Tankie is a floating signifier, a pejorative, a thought-terminating cliché, a rhetorical cudgel.

The only reason why you would deny it or hide it is if you have an agenda.

Or because it’s a thought-terminating pejorative. And in any case, just as it is impossible to be unbiased, it is impossible to be agendaless. By implying that I have some secret agenda, you’re doubling down on McCarthyism.

[–] sleeplessone@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yes.

The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.

[–] Pieresqi@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

What's the definition of tankie ?

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Explained in this post to !nostupidquestions@lemmy.world.

Supposedly it is a pejorative label applied to authoritarian communists, particularly Marxist–Leninist socialists. I presume it is the "pejorative" part that people do not like, b/c many of the places labelled as tankies by others unabashedly do precisely that!

icon used on lemmygrad.ml

I've only used the term twice myself, both kinda self-questioning what it even means, but if it is truly pejorative, then I should stop regardless.

[–] Ashyr@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I wouldn't feel bad using a pejorative for fascists. Neither do I feel bad using a pejorative for other authoritarians. Their disrespect for human dignity, liberty, and worth disqualifies them for protection against such a minor indignity.

Tankies is fine for anyone on the side of the tanks at Tiananmen Square.

[–] EchoCT@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

That's not even where the term originates. Come on, if you're going to use the term at least do the 10 second Google search.

[–] Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

It originally meant someone who supported the USSR's intervention in the 1956 Hungarian revolution. Now it means whatever the labeler wants it to mean, usually as a means of punching left.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Idk. I'm really bad at history and such cause I never pay attention. I used to take everything I saw on the internet at face value, so I decided to slow down on current news. Doesn't help that I like programming and video games a lot, so I don't spend a lot of time thinking about world events.

I just like communities that are tolerant and won't let people bully the lgbt or the disabled. It feels less tiring.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Believe it or not, some people would call you a tankie for that.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I never got called a tankie, so idk about that.

Then again, I rarely participate in political discussions that I don't know about. I try to read as much as possible to get an idea, but I never go in dept, like read sources.

I'm going to go to uni soon. I'll try to spend more time into learning history properly.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Good!

Let me know if you want some basic Marxist recommendations.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was thinking of diving head first into das kapital. I'm not sure if 3 courses of philosophy are enough. I was going to ask my philosophy teacher about it, but I'm a bit scared to ask haha.

I would be glad to get some recommendations though.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I def recommend against starting with das kapital, at least until the advanced / intermediate stages. Its a slog, and not really the best introduction.

Here's a Marxism study plan, with a good number of audiobooks / audiobook torrents for them.

[–] frippa@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

YES

Everybody to the left of biden is considered a tankie nowdays, and I'm proud of being to the left of (and opposed to) genocide enablers.

[–] kabe@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not so. There are many progressives who stand with Marxists on issues like social justice, LGBTQ issues, and Palestine but who do not feel welcome on instances like Hexbear because they also criticize the CCP.

[–] frippa@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And they sometimes get called "tankies" too by people to the right of them. That's why I both think it's a useless term (if everybody is a tankie, then nobody is) and why I think I fall in the definition (as most leftists do, I've seen pretty mild social democrats being called "tankies" by liberals)

Plus ultimately these blanket descriptions are pretty useless IMO, you'll find extremely heated debates between "tankies" themselves on many topics, there's no consensus, and there are many different ideologies "tankies" subscribe to. It would be like saying that Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians and Greens are all the same thing. We could call them "dronies" maybe.

[–] kabe@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh, I agree - calling people Tankies/Liberals/Dronies, especially ad hominem, is reductive and generally unhelpful.

[–] Tabitha@hexbear.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wish stalin drove tanks straight into west berlin, then france, then the UK, then atlantis, then NYC, then chicago, then seattle, then anchorage, then Tokyo, then Seoul, then Beijing, then KFC/tacobell.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sorry nerd, that was Trotsky that wanted that, and your boi put an icepick in his brain for being good at it.

[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago

Love Trotsky and hate how they did him after all he did for the revolution, but Trotskyists annoy the fuck out of me.

[–] T34_69@hexbear.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh, yeah, with all the tanks the USSR had in 1923 galaxy-brain

He was that good! Also the Red Army actually captured some tanks from Allied forces that were helping the Whites during the war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

Bonus fun fact: Three of the captured Mark Vs were recommissioned to defend Stalingrad

[–] krolden@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have a new favorite description for human that I hear today: terrified electric meat. Perfectly sums up the human experience

[–] davel@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

Tankie is a floating signifier. If you ask twenty liberals what a tankie is you’ll get

  1. Twenty different answers, and
  2. Several people upset at being called a liberal because they don’t have even a Wikipedia-level understanding of liberalism or socialism.